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 PostPost subject: Before the XAML Windows 10 Start Menu        Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:21 pm 
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Hey guys, long time no see!

Currently trying to figure out which Windows 10 build is the last to contain the non-XAML start menu; basically the start menu that was used in the RT Update 3- mostly seen in builds 9841, 9879, and 9888? I know there are some builds that start using the new taskbar and have the XAML Start Menu but they may even have the older start menu still; it's just a matter of which one.

What I know so far:

9909 is the first pictured on the BA wiki to contain the XAML menu; but is the older menu still present?

Just need to know from these builds; would like to update this list (BOLD = contains the old start menu)

10.0.9888.fbl_release.141113-2137 - Leaked December 2, 2014
10.0.9900.fbl_awesome1501.141201-2114 - Leaked January 29, 2015
10.0.9901.winmain_prs.141202-1718 - Leaked December 14, 2014
10.0.9901.fbl_awesome1501.141203-0949 - Leaked January 29, 2015
10.0.9903.winmain_prs.141204-1736 - Leaked January 29, 2015
10.0.9906.winmain_prs.141209-1616 - Leaked January 29, 2015
10.0.9907.fbl_awesome1501.141210-1857 - Leaked January 29, 2015
10.0.9909.fbl_awesome1501.141213-2119 - Leaked January 29, 2015
10.0.9913.fbl_awesome1501.141217-1931 - Leaked January 29, 2015
10.0.9918.fbl_awesome1501.150107-2124 - Leaked January 29, 2015
10.0.9922.fbl_awesome1501.150113-1605 - Leaked January 29, 2015
10.0.9924.fbl_awesome1501.150115-1755 - Leaked January 29, 2015
10.0.9925.fbl_awesome1501.150116-2110 - Leaked January 29, 2015
10.0.9926.fbl_awesome1501.150119-1648 - January Technical Preview, Released January 23, 2015

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 PostPost subject: Re: Before the XAML Windows 10 Start Menu        Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:19 pm 
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Everything until 10014 contains the old pre-XAML Start Menu; It's hidden from 9909 onwards, but can still be enabled (along with the Windows 8.1 Update 1-era Start Screen) with the use of a registry key. While I do know that 10041 does not have either of those, I haven't tested builds in between yet.

As for Server builds, everything until 10540 contains the pre-XAML Start Menu, due to the Shell Experience Host not being implemented until a later TH2 Server build. As noted before, 10074 onwards do not have the Windows 8.1 Update 1-era Start Screen.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Before the XAML Windows 10 Start Menu        Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 7:55 pm 
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Courage wrote:
Everything until 10014 contains the old pre-XAML Start Menu; It's hidden from 9909 onwards, but can still be enabled (along with the Windows 8.1 Update 1-era Start Screen) with the use of a registry key. While I do know that 10041 does not have either of those, I haven't tested builds in between yet.

As for Server builds, everything until 10540 contains the pre-XAML Start Menu, due to the Shell Experience Host not being implemented until a later TH2 Server build. As noted before, 10074 onwards do not have the Windows 8.1 Update 1-era Start Screen.


Can any build between 9841 and 10014 have their timebomb removed and be activated?

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 PostPost subject: Re: Before the XAML Windows 10 Start Menu        Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:07 pm 
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In Windows 10 Build 9926 and older builds, they can have the "old" (Pre-XAML) start menu enabled via registry.

Also, in Windows Server 2016 Technical Preview 4 (Build 10586) it still had the old (Pre-XAML) start menu.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Before the XAML Windows 10 Start Menu        Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:15 pm 
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Bob Pony wrote:
In Windows 10 Build 9926 and older builds, they can have the "old" (Pre-XAML) start menu enabled via registry.

Also, in Windows Server 2016 Technical Preview 4 (Build 10586) it still had the old (Pre-XAML) start menu.


Read my reply above. The registry key does not apply just to all builds until 9926, but up to 10014 (and possibly later builds) as well. Also, I can confirm that the old start menu is gone completely in Server 10586, having used it for four months....

@giantsteen: I haven't really used these builds past the timebomb, sorry. Try asking around.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Before the XAML Windows 10 Start Menu        Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:28 am 
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giantsteen wrote:
Can any build between 9841 and 10014 have their timebomb removed and be activated?
While this is possible, daily usage can be ruled out as all non-production builds of Windows 10 are signed with a certificate that expired by now. This is completely separate from the activation and timebomb and prohibits booting once the certificate has expired. If you boot the build with an earlier date and then set it forward, the OS will almost instantly realize and pretty much no program will start due to expired catalogs or signatures. There is no way out of this.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Before the XAML Windows 10 Start Menu        Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 9:44 pm 
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Lukas Marsik wrote:
giantsteen wrote:
Can any build between 9841 and 10014 have their timebomb removed and be activated?
While this is possible, daily usage can be ruled out as all non-production builds of Windows 10 are signed with a certificate that expired by now. This is completely separate from the activation and timebomb and prohibits booting once the certificate has expired. If you boot the build with an earlier date and then set it forward, the OS will almost instantly realize and pretty much no program will start due to expired catalogs or signatures. There is no way out of this.


I figured. Did research and that's the same conclusion I came to; it isn't worth finding this stuff out at this point. It's too bad Microsoft didn't release an update of the "start menu" for Windows 8.1 like they did for ARM. I really liked it and feel like it runs pretty smoothly on older devices. But maybe that's just me!

But hey if there's someone who wants to work on a project to get that Pre-XAML start menu working in Windows 8.1 (replace files, mostly explorer, etc), count me in!

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 PostPost subject: Re: Before the XAML Windows 10 Start Menu        Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:06 am 
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giantsteen wrote:
But hey if there's someone who wants to work on a project to get that Pre-XAML start menu working in Windows 8.1 (replace files, mostly explorer, etc), count me in!

[foreshadowing]Alrighty then, you've been counted in.[/foreshadowing]


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 PostPost subject: Re: Before the XAML Windows 10 Start Menu        Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 10:50 am 
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giantsteen wrote:
But hey if there's someone who wants to work on a project to get that Pre-XAML start menu working in Windows 8.1 (replace files, mostly explorer, etc), count me in!
Microsoft made sure that this would be pretty much impossible too. Signatures used by Win10 Preview builds are either expired or explicitly revoked on production systems like 8.1.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Before the XAML Windows 10 Start Menu        Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:41 pm 
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Lukas Marsik wrote:
giantsteen wrote:
But hey if there's someone who wants to work on a project to get that Pre-XAML start menu working in Windows 8.1 (replace files, mostly explorer, etc), count me in!
Microsoft made sure that this would be pretty much impossible too. Signatures used by Win10 Preview builds are either expired or explicitly revoked on production systems like 8.1.

Well so far, that hasn't stopped me from rebuilding it... (hint hint :3)

EDIT: GIF of WIP Start9 Menu in action. (So sorry for the color compression, I messed up my gifrecorder settings :/ ) (Also note that context menu-based tile rearranging is only a placeholder while I try to figure out how to deal with drag-drop stuff .____. )


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 PostPost subject: Re: Before the XAML Windows 10 Start Menu        Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:27 pm 
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Splitwirez wrote:
Well so far, that hasn't stopped me from rebuilding it... (hint hint :3)

EDIT: GIF of WIP Start9 Menu in action. (So sorry for the color compression, I messed up my gifrecorder settings :/ ) (Also note that context menu-based tile rearranging is only a placeholder while I try to figure out how to deal with drag-drop stuff .____. )
Good luck with live tiles.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Before the XAML Windows 10 Start Menu        Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:31 pm 
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Lukas Marsik wrote:
Splitwirez wrote:
Well so far, that hasn't stopped me from rebuilding it... (hint hint :3)

EDIT: GIF of WIP Start9 Menu in action. (So sorry for the color compression, I messed up my gifrecorder settings :/ ) (Also note that context menu-based tile rearranging is only a placeholder while I try to figure out how to deal with drag-drop stuff .____. )
Good luck with live tiles.


how does anyone implement live tiles in a fashion that looks genuine anyway?


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 PostPost subject: Re: Before the XAML Windows 10 Start Menu        Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:21 pm 
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Lukas Marsik wrote:
Splitwirez wrote:
Well so far, that hasn't stopped me from rebuilding it... (hint hint :3)

EDIT: GIF of WIP Start9 Menu in action. (So sorry for the color compression, I messed up my gifrecorder settings :/ ) (Also note that context menu-based tile rearranging is only a placeholder while I try to figure out how to deal with drag-drop stuff .____. )
Good luck with live tiles.

Honestly, those were the one aspect of the menu I'd flat-out given up on. Why? Because firstly, I'm not 1337 enough at Reverse Engineering to do so (in fact I can't RE at all .-. ), and secondly, my own tile implementation is more flexible, as it has the potential to allow for customizable tile colours, more tile sizes, custom tile icons, and (perhaps most importantly), you can pin just about anything to it - applications, files, folders, commands, if it can be opened from CMD, you can pin it! (Although I have yet to add a UI for doing so... ._. )

So tl,dr I'm not 1337 enough to use native tiles so instead I added customizable, flexible tiles.

Thanks, though...maybe I should consider a custom live tile implementation?

logonoff wrote:
Lukas Marsik wrote:
Splitwirez wrote:
Well so far, that hasn't stopped me from rebuilding it... (hint hint :3)

EDIT: GIF of WIP Start9 Menu in action. (So sorry for the color compression, I messed up my gifrecorder settings :/ ) (Also note that context menu-based tile rearranging is only a placeholder while I try to figure out how to deal with drag-drop stuff .____. )
Good luck with live tiles.


how does anyone implement live tiles in a fashion that looks genuine anyway?

By using the native tile implementation, I would assume. See above for why I didn't do that.




Also, another GIF, this time showing a WIP transition animation (can be disabled) and the newly-added, mostly-working MRU list.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Before the XAML Windows 10 Start Menu        Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 12:32 am 
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Apologies for the bump...just figured I may as well show some Start9 progress:
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 PostPost subject: Re: Before the XAML Windows 10 Start Menu        Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:10 pm 
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Lukas Marsik wrote:
While this is possible, daily usage can be ruled out as all non-production builds of Windows 10 are signed with a certificate that expired by now.


Hate to bump, but interestingly Server 9845 will start if installed with today's date. Even after setting the date years into the future it will still start. Don't know if this applies to other builds, but still.

Image

Programs such as taskmgr(which fail to start on many builds with today's date) continue to work without complaining about certificate troubles.
So it is likely that either server builds, internal builds, or both are signed differently.

EDIT:
Windows Server 2016 buildtag: 6.4.9845.0.fbl_partner_eeap

Runs with current and future date: yes
Does not restart or log off after 2 hours: yes
Has all other time-bomb related issues(e.g. unable to set picture wallpaper, warning messages): yes

I would like another user to verify these. I have installed the amd64fre off FTP, using server with a GUI.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Before the XAML Windows 10 Start Menu        Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 5:10 pm 
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Interesting...do you know if that build is available anywhere outside the BA FTP?

Also, umm...
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...hehe...


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 PostPost subject: Re: Before the XAML Windows 10 Start Menu        Posted: Wed Apr 05, 2017 10:50 pm 
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@yourepicfailure: I'll try this with 10064 and 10022 (Server, of course), and report if this phenomenon is seen there.

UPDATE: Both of them fail to boot, let alone install. I assume that this is a bug that's specific to 9845.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Before the XAML Windows 10 Start Menu        Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 5:01 pm 
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However, are you able to replicate this with 9845?

If this build(which is quite buggy) is in fact an anomaly in terms of timebomb, then it would be a good idea to see if there is any way to trick activation.
This would make full-term use much easier, making this the only pre-release build of Win10/Server 2k16 remotely usable today.

Bugs aside, this is a fast and rather pleasing build.
Image
Date is currently set back, just in case.

EDIT:
"PC Settings" app does not work. It opens, shows splash screen, then minimizes. It is unusable, and this bug also known to take place in the official TP 9841. If anyone has a solution, I'd like to know. .Net 3.5 is installed as well as full desktop experience feature(required in Server 2016).

And no, I am not asking for one to post a crack open on the forums.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Before the XAML Windows 10 Start Menu        Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 7:08 pm 
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*ahem*

...apologies for the late bump, I wasn't entirely sure if there was any remaining interest in this, but I figured there'd be no loss in posting a little update, in case anyone is still interested:
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 PostPost subject: Re: Before the XAML Windows 10 Start Menu        Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 7:23 pm 
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It does look interesting, how are you handling the dragging?


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 PostPost subject: Re: Before the XAML Windows 10 Start Menu        Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 4:16 pm 
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Lukas Marsik wrote:
It does look interesting

:D

Lukas Marsik wrote:
how are you handling the dragging?

Can't quite tell if you're asking about the behaviour visible to the end user or what goes on behind the scenes in the code, so I guess I'll try to address both.

The apparent behaviour is intended to be as close to Windows 8.x/10 as possible, though it's far from perfect, and currently lacks the visual feedback present in Microsoft's tile implementation.

In terms of code...I have no idea how to explain the logic behind small tiles (those were a huge pain to get working, and even now they're pretty volatile...), but generally, the behaviour is as follows:
- User presses mouse down on Tile (we'll call this the source tile) and moves cursor
- WPF interprets this as a drag event, and thus freezes all mouse events, so regardless of the mouse's position, the source tile is considered to have the mouse pressed down on it
- User releases mouse
- WPF checks where the mouse's coordinates are and which tile's coordinates the mouse's coordinates fall within
- If the coordinates all within the source tile, the source tile is opened (e.g. whatever it links to occurs, be it opening a file or application, displaying the contents of a folder, running a command, etc.), otherwise the tile is moved and a metric ((HECK))ton of checks are done regarding small tiles (I won't get into that because firstly I have no idea how to translate it to English, and secondly it still barely even works, so I've still got some work to do to get things to work more reliably there and don't really feel like having to translate it all to English twice. But I will say this much: It involves StackPanels and foreach loops...SO...MANY...foreach LOOPS...).


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 PostPost subject: Re: Before the XAML Windows 10 Start Menu        Posted: Thu May 04, 2017 6:08 am 
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yourepicfailure wrote:
However, are you able to replicate this with 9845?

If this build(which is quite buggy) is in fact an anomaly in terms of timebomb, then it would be a good idea to see if there is any way to trick activation.
This would make full-term use much easier, making this the only pre-release build of Win10/Server 2k16 remotely usable today.

Bugs aside, this is a fast and rather pleasing build.
Image
Date is currently set back, just in case.

EDIT:
"PC Settings" app does not work. It opens, shows splash screen, then minimizes. It is unusable, and this bug also known to take place in the official TP 9841. If anyone has a solution, I'd like to know. .Net 3.5 is installed as well as full desktop experience feature(required in Server 2016).

And no, I am not asking for one to post a crack open on the forums.


Does one have the ability to convert this build into a client build or no? Not too fond of the Server theme...

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 PostPost subject: Re: Before the XAML Windows 10 Start Menu        Posted: Thu May 04, 2017 11:39 am 
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It is possible to install desktop experience as a feature, allowing one to change the theme.

However, it must be done before performing any sort of hacks to the OS, such as activation.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Before the XAML Windows 10 Start Menu        Posted: Fri May 05, 2017 12:00 pm 
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It probably still uses a Windows 8 method of activation, therefore it could possibly be cracked. Not sure though. Making a custom version and repacking a WIM may be the best option for this build.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Before the XAML Windows 10 Start Menu        Posted: Sat May 06, 2017 6:26 pm 
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The fact is, there is absolutely NO timebomb. There are no 2 hour log-offs, no 2 hour anything. You just get nagged every 10 minutes and can't set a picture wallpaper.

Don't know if I've said this, but its settings app is broken similar to 9841 at certain points. It will not launch.
Assume its settings app would have similar blocks to a standard un-activated install of 2012 R2.

Its tokens checks are poor. I can load up any tokens.dat from vista to RTM server 2016 and all nags stop. However it breaks Desktop Experience feature installer(will fail to install, errors during feature-install required restart), don't know about any other. The replacement does not change any other unactivated factor such as inability to set picture wallpaper.

9845 overall is a little unstable at times, tad slow on startup. Power-down menu is broken, but could be fixed.
Otherwise if someone could "tweak" the activation on this build and fix the big glitches, this build would suffice for every-day use.

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