Microsoft's inconsistency on building Windows 10

Discuss Windows Vista/Server 2008 to Windows 10.
Everything Windows
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Microsoft's inconsistency on building Windows 10

Post by Everything Windows »

I've noticed for a couple thing that makes me feel disturbed while using Windows 10. It's good that they make Windows 10 more modern and more user-friendly. But, I found something very inconsistent for Windows.

1. Old icon
Did you notice something when you look into the .dll files on Windows 10 for choosing an icon for shortcuts. They even still keeping icon from Windows 95, 98, even XP still in it. I don't know why they just got it so
Image Image
Image
Thanks to Fanta Shokata


2.App duplication
Everytime I use Windows 10, for listening music, watching videos, and daily stuff. I notice that there are two apps for that :
- Groove Music and Windows Media Player
- Movies/Films & TV and Windows Media Player
- Settings and Control Panel
- Paint and Paint 3D (Thanks to shaglonux)
- Snipping Tool and Windows Ink Workspace (Thanks to shaglonux)
- Windows Picture Viewer (shimgvw) and the Pictures app (Thanks to shaglonux)
- Internet Explorer (don't entirely sure on this existance) and Microsoft Edge (whatever it's EdgeHTML or Chromium one)
and so on
No further reason I got from that, If it is for compatibility reason? or just sit there unsued? Placeholder?

3.Design on Windows app (added on February 15th 2021)
I know the recent update on Windows Insiders about the Disk Management brought into Settings, but we take a look into the version that exist in 20H2 (accessible in Classic Control Panel at Administrative Tools > Disk Management). Compare it to the File Explorer (despite the fact that Microsoft developed newer File Explorer quietly and include it quietly by tweaking and third party "Files" app in Microsoft Store) also Metro UI Fluent Design based app. I know it's too long to migrate functions to Metro UI Fluent Design based app, but at least Microsoft may not release Windows 10 RTM back in July 2015 as "Windows 10". likely to other name such as "Windows 2015" or "Windows NT 10" or "Windows NT 6.4" if the NT version still 6.4.

If you can give me more info about this, reply and I will mostly answer that and add the edit into with credit
Last edited by Everything Windows on Thu Mar 04, 2021 11:50 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Microsoft's inconsistency on building Windows 10

Post by Fanta Shokata »

Everything Windows wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:55 pm
I've noticed for a couple thing that makes me feel disturbed while using Windows 10. It's good that they make Windows 10 more modern and more user-friendly. But, I found something very inconsistent for Windows.

1. Old icon
Did you notice something when you look into the .dll files on Windows 10 for choosing an icon for shortcuts. They even still keeping icon from Windows 95, 98, even XP still in it. I don't know why they just got it so

2.App duplication
Everytime I use Windows 10, for listening music, watching videos, and daily stuff. I notice that there are two apps for that :
- Groove Music and Windows Media Player
- Movies/Films & TV and Windows Media Player
- Settings and Control Panel
and so on
No further reason I got from that, If it is for compatibility reason? or just sit there unsued? Placeholder?

If you can give me more info about this, reply and I will mostly answer that and add the edit into with credit
Image
Image

Regarding icons I've noticed that if you look deeply into moricons.dll file, you can see that there are leftovers from Windows 3.1 and Office 2000/XP. About app duplication, I think that's for compatibility reason, though Microsoft eventually will replace Control Panel with Settings.
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Re: Microsoft's inconsistency on building Windows 10

Post by Joet BERNARD »

And then, WMP is not the default out of the box music and video player.
The Windows 10 WMP is identical to the last WMP for Windows 7. There is no major update since a long.
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Re: Microsoft's inconsistency on building Windows 10

Post by Fanta Shokata »

Joet BERNARD wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:15 pm
And then, WMP is not the default out of the box music and video player.
The Windows 10 WMP is identical to the last WMP for Windows 7. There is no major update since a long.
Windows Media Player was last updated in 2009, in the same time as Windows 7 release.
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Re: Microsoft's inconsistency on building Windows 10

Post by shaglonux »

As I know, WMP is not meant to be only for playing media files. With the WMP you can burn or rip Audio CDs, synchronize your music files with portable devices, etc. These capabilities may became unnecessary today (even most computers nowadays don't have an optical drive), but there would be only 3rd party alternative currently for this features in Windows, if the Microsoft removes this app.
Fanta Shokata wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:44 pm
Windows Media Player was last updated in 2009, in the same time as Windows 7 release.
Some features has been removed from that yet, like DVD-playing, etc.

The existence of the Control Panel is almost the same thing, it contains many settings that can't changed yet in the Settings applet, if you want to change these you have to use PowerShell or regedit.

There are many other duplications like this, for example there is Paint, and Paint 3D, or the Snipping Tool and Windows Ink Workspace, Windows Picture Viewer (shimgvw) and the Pictures app - but these apps are not the same, even if they look similar at first glance.

I look some kind of tendency in this case. As the smartphones are getting more intuitive, the computers, and Windows has to follow up this trend. The using of a computer is not the same thing as 10 years ago, and the people wants to use super-intuitive, easy-to-use, and clean looking apps, and they just don't need all the capabilities that the old apps can offer. Howewer many of the oldschool power users would hate Windows without these old "legacy" apps, because they're know much more, even if they have a more complicated GUI.

Another reason for keeping these apps, that the modern apps are not perfectly expandable yet - for example you can install video codecs on your PC, and WMP plays more formats, you can install image formats, then Paint, and the Windows Picture Viewer (shimgvw) can open new kind of images. Even some programs and drivers can expand the Control Panel itself (like NVIDIA, Java, ...)

I've read in a different topic, some month ago that "Windows 10 is a system, which is constantly in beta state" - I could maximally agree with this. The new UWP apps are working, but yet, they has to get many and many updates to get closer to their ancestor in knowledge, and capabilities.
Everything Windows wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:55 pm
1. Old icon
Did you notice something when you look into the .dll files on Windows 10 for choosing an icon for shortcuts. They even still keeping icon from Windows 95, 98, even XP still in it. I don't know why they just got it so
As for the icons, the appearance of the Windows is nowadays not so definied by these icons, as it's not necessary to replace all of them to newer.

The biggest rework I guess was done in Windows 95, where almost everything got a new detailed, and uniform icon, and image set. This was kept until the Windows 2000 era with little or small changes. If they kept some icons from Windows 3.1 it should be for compatibility (like moricons.dll).

The next or big change in the icon, and picture set was in Windows XP, where the major of the stuff are changed to a higher color depth, more modern looking version - with keeping the olds icons as low resolution, low color depth versions. You can be convinced of this by opening a DLL from XP by some kind of resource editor. In the system if you are using a 16+ bit color depth display, you mostly find old iconset only in MMC, and the Windows Setup.

The next change was in Windows Vista, where many elements of the Windows (like Control Panel items) dropped the dialog-kind approach, and get a nice web-like UI - which means, that conception of the icons is changed to images in different sizes, to display these UI items. The same as for ribbon in Windows 7 Paint, and WordPad.

As for the icons, many of them has got again an even more higher color resolution version (which sometimes not displayed in the pick icon dialog), and many of appears in new DLLs, that was just not in the system before (like in mmres.dll). Therefore, the first rest of iconset seems unchanged in first glance (like in shell32.dll), but if they pick an XP like icon for a folder for example, there is a high chance that you'll get a newer version of this.

The same goes for Windows 8.x, and 10. The only difference is, the the Metro/UWP apps also more likely needs images than old kinds of icons, and these apps even store these at a different place than some DLLs in Windows folder.

I agree that some kind of iconset maybe seems nowadays odd and obsolete (like moricons.dll, without official DOS app support in x64), but these collections are not so large that they couldn't be kept in the system, for improving compatibility (for old shortcuts, and applications for example).

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Re: Microsoft's inconsistency on building Windows 10

Post by Kimberly5384 »

As to why we see windows 10 alternatices of platforms that are newer; It mostly has to do with compatibility reasons. The best example is Internet Explorer. It has been dead for a while, yet Microsoft can't simply remove it as many companies require IE for their legacy applications. Another reason is that MS would have to do an entire rewriting of an app that probably already exists, meaning they can get away with having both a Settings app and the Control Panel.
Microsoft's vision of trying to completely modernize Windows would require a completely new OS as it is, at least imo.
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Re: Microsoft's inconsistency on building Windows 10

Post by Fanta Shokata »

Kimberly5384 wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:54 pm
As to why we see windows 10 alternatices of platforms that are newer; It mostly has to do with compatibility reasons. The best example is Internet Explorer. It has been dead for a while, yet Microsoft can't simply remove it as many companies require IE for their legacy applications. Another reason is that MS would have to do an entire rewriting of an app that probably already exists, meaning they can get away with having both a Settings app and the Control Panel.
Microsoft's vision of trying to completely modernize Windows would require a completely new OS as it is, at least imo.
If Microsoft wants to make Windows completely modern, then they should create Windows 11.
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Re: Microsoft's inconsistency on building Windows 10

Post by Everything Windows »

But at least they don't have to claim the Windows as "Windows 10" if it doesn't really finished yet
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Re: Microsoft's inconsistency on building Windows 10

Post by AlphaBeta »

Everything Windows wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:55 pm
I've noticed for a couple thing that makes me feel disturbed while using Windows 10. It's good that they make Windows 10 more modern and more user-friendly. But, I found something very inconsistent for Windows.

1. Old icon
Did you notice something when you look into the .dll files on Windows 10 for choosing an icon for shortcuts. They even still keeping icon from Windows 95, 98, even XP still in it. I don't know why they just got it so
< moricons.dll screenshot >
First of all, I love how that out of the inconsistencies in the Windows 10 user interface, most of which are encounterable during normal use, you illustrate a point by showing the icons in a DLL file that's sitting there completely unused since 1995. Yes, icons are a chronic problem for Windows design. Browsing icons in a resource editor is not really representative of the problem, because Windows might not be using a specific icon in a DLL, but they can't just get rid of it, because there is always that one program that used that icon and would break. That's the cause for many issues with Windows - exaggerated compatibility.

Another problem is that user experience stuff usually just hits the commonly used components. With each redesign, that's less and less of the Windows desktop. The big gap between Win32/GDI/USER and UWP is not making this any easier. As an example, see the Control Panel. With the introduction of the Settings app, the Control Panel seems to have been promoted into a power user tool, where the average redesign interval is anywhere between 5 and 20 years:
Image

Hopefully WinUI 3.0 will solve this problem, so we might see classic Windows components taking on Fluent Design in the near future.
Everything Windows wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:55 pm
2.App duplication
Everytime I use Windows 10, for listening music, watching videos, and daily stuff. I notice that there are two apps for that :
- Groove Music and Windows Media Player
- Movies/Films & TV and Windows Media Player
- Settings and Control Panel
- Paint and Paint 3D (Thanks to shaglonux)
- Snipping Tool and Windows Ink Workspace (Thanks to shaglonux)
- Windows Picture Viewer (shimgvw) and the Pictures app (Thanks to shaglonux)
- Internet Explorer (don't entirely sure on this existance) and Microsoft Edge (whatever it's EdgeHTML or Chromium one)
and so on
No further reason I got from that, If it is for compatibility reason? or just sit there unsued? Placeholder?
I think the explanation is very simple. It's always about the older app being there for compatibility purposes (e.g. WIndows Media Player, Internet Explorer, Control Panel) or about the newer app being pretty much a completely different thing (e.g. Paint 3D). Many corporate intranet sites require Internet Explorer. Many drivers come with Control Panel applets for configuration. If you remove either of them, you are just going to make many people angry for no real benefit.
Everything Windows wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:55 pm
3.Design on Windows app (added on February 15th 2021)
I know the recent update on Windows Insiders about the Disk Management brought into Settings, but we take a look into the version that exist in 20H2 (accessible in Classic Control Panel at Administrative Tools > Disk Management). Compare it to the File Explorer (despite the fact that Microsoft developed newer File Explorer quietly and include it quietly by tweaking and third party "Files" app in Microsoft Store) also Metro UI Fluent Design based app. I know it's too long to migrate functions to Metro UI Fluent Design based app, but at least Microsoft may not release Windows 10 RTM back in July 2015 as "Windows 10". likely to other name such as "Windows 2015" or "Windows NT 10" or "Windows NT 6.4" if the NT version still 6.4.
I am not quite sure what you mean by this. The claim that Microsoft created the new File Explorer in Windows 10X by tweaking the third party Files app seems just ridiculous. Also, what would a different name even change? It's just a name.
Fanta Shokata wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:08 pm
Kimberly5384 wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:54 pm
As to why we see windows 10 alternatices of platforms that are newer; It mostly has to do with compatibility reasons. The best example is Internet Explorer. It has been dead for a while, yet Microsoft can't simply remove it as many companies require IE for their legacy applications. Another reason is that MS would have to do an entire rewriting of an app that probably already exists, meaning they can get away with having both a Settings app and the Control Panel.
Microsoft's vision of trying to completely modernize Windows would require a completely new OS as it is, at least imo.
If Microsoft wants to make Windows completely modern, then they should create Windows 11.
It might come as a surprise, but this new operating system already exists. It's called Windows 10X.
AlphaBeta, stop brainwashing me immediately!

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Re: Microsoft's inconsistency on building Windows 10

Post by Fanta Shokata »

Image

As you can see, Money and Sports icons still look like Windows 8. I believe Microsoft will update these icons in the near future.
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Re: Microsoft's inconsistency on building Windows 10

Post by Mr.Blue2001 »

The big take away really is Microsoft can't seem to decide on what direction to go like one example is they keep saying the Snipping Tool is moving to the Windows Store and the classic one will be removed yet it's still in the latest build of Windows 10 as of now. i started to see the message about it moving in version 1803.

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Re: Microsoft's inconsistency on building Windows 10

Post by Everything Windows »

AlphaBeta wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 12:48 pm
I think the explanation is very simple. It's always about the older app being there for compatibility purposes (e.g. WIndows Media Player, Internet Explorer, Control Panel) or about the newer app being pretty much a completely different thing (e.g. Paint 3D). Many corporate intranet sites require Internet Explorer. Many drivers come with Control Panel applets for configuration. If you remove either of them, you are just going to make many people angry for no real benefit.
At least they should move all the old/outdated program into one simple mode "Compatibility Mode" where almost everything that used in Windows 10 are picked from old programs, whether it is applicable via Settings in Accessibility or it's there on Action Center right?
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Re: Microsoft's inconsistency on building Windows 10

Post by SintezQ »

i think all this resources for compatibility with older programs. Perhaps these are "leftovers" or inherited elements from older versions of the OS that do not need to be removed.

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Re: Microsoft's inconsistency on building Windows 10

Post by ATeamInc »

Shell32.dll contains icons from Windows XP. Even if the OS does not need the icons anymore (new icons are now in imageres.dll), many programs rely on these particular icons. Why bother to remove the icons anyways? Even explorer still has the Windows 98 computer icon.
A good example of a leftover (from XP and Server 2003) is one of the RPC services which is just provided for compatibility and serves no real purpose (I think it was the RPC locator). I'm not sure if it still exists in the latest versions of Windows 10 but it sure did before and still does in Windows 7.
Sure, Windows 10 has inconsistencies but you can say that for almost every version of Windows.

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Re: Microsoft's inconsistency on building Windows 10

Post by AlphaBeta »

Everything Windows wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 11:54 am
AlphaBeta wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 12:48 pm
I think the explanation is very simple. It's always about the older app being there for compatibility purposes (e.g. WIndows Media Player, Internet Explorer, Control Panel) or about the newer app being pretty much a completely different thing (e.g. Paint 3D). Many corporate intranet sites require Internet Explorer. Many drivers come with Control Panel applets for configuration. If you remove either of them, you are just going to make many people angry for no real benefit.
At least they should move all the old/outdated program into one simple mode "Compatibility Mode" where almost everything that used in Windows 10 are picked from old programs, whether it is applicable via Settings in Accessibility or it's there on Action Center right?
I am not quite sure what would be the point of that. Does it bother you so much that Windows 10 includes a bunch of legacy programs?
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Re: Microsoft's inconsistency on building Windows 10

Post by Emir214 »

This thread reminds me of the Windows UX Taskforce Long Zheng ran back in 2008. Is there something similar for Windows 10?

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Re: Microsoft's inconsistency on building Windows 10

Post by Everything Windows »

AlphaBeta wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:14 pm
Everything Windows wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 11:54 am
AlphaBeta wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 12:48 pm
I think the explanation is very simple. It's always about the older app being there for compatibility purposes (e.g. WIndows Media Player, Internet Explorer, Control Panel) or about the newer app being pretty much a completely different thing (e.g. Paint 3D). Many corporate intranet sites require Internet Explorer. Many drivers come with Control Panel applets for configuration. If you remove either of them, you are just going to make many people angry for no real benefit.
At least they should move all the old/outdated program into one simple mode "Compatibility Mode" where almost everything that used in Windows 10 are picked from old programs, whether it is applicable via Settings in Accessibility or it's there on Action Center right?
I am not quite sure what would be the point of that. Does it bother you so much that Windows 10 includes a bunch of legacy programs?
It is just too "junky" I guess...
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Re: Microsoft's inconsistency on building Windows 10

Post by ohmsmega »

Don't even get me started..........

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Re: Microsoft's inconsistency on building Windows 10

Post by ohmsmega »

Everything Windows wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:55 pm
I've noticed for a couple thing that makes me feel disturbed while using Windows 10. It's good that they make Windows 10 more modern and more user-friendly. But, I found something very inconsistent for Windows.

1. Old icon
Did you notice something when you look into the .dll files on Windows 10 for choosing an icon for shortcuts. They even still keeping icon from Windows 95, 98, even XP still in it. I don't know why they just got it so
Image Image
Image
Thanks to Fanta Shokata


2.App duplication
Everytime I use Windows 10, for listening music, watching videos, and daily stuff. I notice that there are two apps for that :
- Groove Music and Windows Media Player
- Movies/Films & TV and Windows Media Player
- Settings and Control Panel
- Paint and Paint 3D (Thanks to shaglonux)
- Snipping Tool and Windows Ink Workspace (Thanks to shaglonux)
- Windows Picture Viewer (shimgvw) and the Pictures app (Thanks to shaglonux)
- Internet Explorer (don't entirely sure on this existance) and Microsoft Edge (whatever it's EdgeHTML or Chromium one)
and so on
No further reason I got from that, If it is for compatibility reason? or just sit there unsued? Placeholder?

3.Design on Windows app (added on February 15th 2021)
I know the recent update on Windows Insiders about the Disk Management brought into Settings, but we take a look into the version that exist in 20H2 (accessible in Classic Control Panel at Administrative Tools > Disk Management). Compare it to the File Explorer (despite the fact that Microsoft developed newer File Explorer quietly and include it quietly by tweaking and third party "Files" app in Microsoft Store) also Metro UI Fluent Design based app. I know it's too long to migrate functions to Metro UI Fluent Design based app, but at least Microsoft may not release Windows 10 RTM back in July 2015 as "Windows 10". likely to other name such as "Windows 2015" or "Windows NT 10" or "Windows NT 6.4" if the NT version still 6.4.

If you can give me more info about this, reply and I will mostly answer that and add the edit into with credit
...and toss in a PE that still uses the Vista style grey color boxes...
🤮

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Re: Microsoft's inconsistency on building Windows 10

Post by Everything Windows »

ohmsmega wrote:
Mon Mar 08, 2021 2:18 pm
Everything Windows wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:55 pm
I've noticed for a couple thing that makes me feel disturbed while using Windows 10. It's good that they make Windows 10 more modern and more user-friendly. But, I found something very inconsistent for Windows.

1. Old icon
Did you notice something when you look into the .dll files on Windows 10 for choosing an icon for shortcuts. They even still keeping icon from Windows 95, 98, even XP still in it. I don't know why they just got it so
Image Image
Image
Thanks to Fanta Shokata


2.App duplication
Everytime I use Windows 10, for listening music, watching videos, and daily stuff. I notice that there are two apps for that :
- Groove Music and Windows Media Player
- Movies/Films & TV and Windows Media Player
- Settings and Control Panel
- Paint and Paint 3D (Thanks to shaglonux)
- Snipping Tool and Windows Ink Workspace (Thanks to shaglonux)
- Windows Picture Viewer (shimgvw) and the Pictures app (Thanks to shaglonux)
- Internet Explorer (don't entirely sure on this existance) and Microsoft Edge (whatever it's EdgeHTML or Chromium one)
and so on
No further reason I got from that, If it is for compatibility reason? or just sit there unsued? Placeholder?

3.Design on Windows app (added on February 15th 2021)
I know the recent update on Windows Insiders about the Disk Management brought into Settings, but we take a look into the version that exist in 20H2 (accessible in Classic Control Panel at Administrative Tools > Disk Management). Compare it to the File Explorer (despite the fact that Microsoft developed newer File Explorer quietly and include it quietly by tweaking and third party "Files" app in Microsoft Store) also Metro UI Fluent Design based app. I know it's too long to migrate functions to Metro UI Fluent Design based app, but at least Microsoft may not release Windows 10 RTM back in July 2015 as "Windows 10". likely to other name such as "Windows 2015" or "Windows NT 10" or "Windows NT 6.4" if the NT version still 6.4.

If you can give me more info about this, reply and I will mostly answer that and add the edit into with credit
...and toss in a PE that still uses the Vista style grey color boxes...
🤮
Yap, the sign of inconsistency keeps bigger and more noticable
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Re: Microsoft's inconsistency on building Windows 10

Post by lollolman »

Why does Microsoft even keep these? They're so old that they practically have no purpose.

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Re: Microsoft's inconsistency on building Windows 10

Post by Josephlj945 »

I think it's cool. They're basically easter eggs.

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Re: Microsoft's inconsistency on building Windows 10

Post by cream22 »

I think it's mostly a part that was left behind by the original developers of Windows NT as an "easter egg" or "time capsule". Or it was used to improve compatibility with older programs, as businesses could not afford to use a broken essential program.

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Re: Microsoft's inconsistency on building Windows 10

Post by Lucas Brooks »

For sure those icons are kept for compatibility purposes. Some programs display their own icons, as well as those Windows ones, and updating them to newer designs will result in different icon styles everywhere in the same application.

I believe some of those icons in moricons.dll were once used by Program Manager, if those DOS apps were found during the installation process. There is the possibility that someone once installed MS-DOS and some DOS apps, then installed Windows 3.x, and upgraded all the way to Windows 10. Maybe one day that person for no good reason will open up Program Manager and see all the icons of his DOS apps gone - Microsoft don't want that to happen. And yes, I might be that person...

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Re: Microsoft's inconsistency on building Windows 10

Post by Emir214 »

The icons on shell32.dll are getting a makeover: https://www.windowslatest.com/2021/05/0 ... n-shell32/

Probably moricons.dll will get one too.

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