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 PostPost subject: Windows ME installation problems        Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:59 pm 
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First things first: I was installing 95c, 98SE & ME at the same time on Windows 10 Fall Creator's. All machines had the default settings given to me by VirtualBox. I tried again later with ME on its own.

During installation, Windows ME lost mouse support. What happened was the mouse started getting very slow in a matter of a few seconds and just froze before I could enter my information to continue the installation. Is there any way to fix the mouse on ME? 95c & 98SE were perfectly fine.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows ME installation problems        Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:32 pm 
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First off, don't use VirtualBox or VMWare for Windows 9x since they are very poor on getting a modern interpretation due to the many bugs in Windows 9x. Use PCem or 86Box.

Can you still use the enter and tab key during the setup to continue. That is what happens when the mouse doesn't work in a few setups (like the Windows Longhorn ones).

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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows ME installation problems        Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:31 pm 
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86Box is the best for Millenium, but if you don't like it, VMware should be fine, Me has included drivers for sound card emulated by VMware and you just have to install VMware Tools (or GPU driver alone) for best experience.
VirtualBox, on the other hand, doesn't have video drivers for 9x and early NTs - sure, Scitech Display Doctor exists, but this driver has performance comparable to the default XP driver for unrecognised GPUs.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows ME installation problems        Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:48 pm 
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BF10 wrote:
First off, don't use VirtualBox or VMWare for Windows 9x since they are very poor on getting a modern interpretation due to the many bugs in Windows 9x. Use PCem or 86Box.

Not true! There is no better virtual machine software than VMware Workstation - for Win95, 98, 2000, and ME. And XP, and basically for all Windows OSes starting from 95. In terms of connecting external USB devices from host to a virtual machine, it's unbeatable. Just needs to install VMware Tools.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows ME installation problems        Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:11 pm 
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Dabrowski wrote:
BF10 wrote:
First off, don't use VirtualBox or VMWare for Windows 9x since they are very poor on getting a modern interpretation due to the many bugs in Windows 9x. Use PCem or 86Box.

Not true! There is no better virtual machine software than VMware Workstation - for Win95, 98, 2000, and ME. And XP, and basically for all Windows OSes starting from 95. In terms of connecting external USB devices from host to a virtual machine, it's unbeatable. Just needs to install VMware Tools.


For the graphics card driver, sure, but the rest like CDAudio on win9x would be a bit of a pain, as well as Direct3D?

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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows ME installation problems        Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:57 am 
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I made a post here about audio under Windows 95 on VMware Player. I didn't think about CD Audio though. Back in the 1990s, I think almost everyone's CD audio went directly as analog from the CD drive to an input on the sound card over a 3 or 4 pin cable, and all that the software running on the PC did was tell the CD drive to start/stop/pause/etc. and control the mixer on the audio card. Later, Windows would read the audio stream from the CD and send it to the sound card digitally, I vaguely remember a checkbox somewhere in Windows to tell it you wanted to do that. I think that in the 1990s it would have put too much strain on your PC to do that.

Are there any emulators that emulate that analog connection between the CD drive and the sound card? I never really though about that before. Obviously you can ignore any emulators that only support .iso files, since they don't have audio tracks, so I think that would exclude VMware - I don't remember seeing any VMware products support anything other than .iso. Emulating this seems a bit pointless, because the emulated PC has such a small amount of involvement here (it's not processing the audio, it's just telling the virtual CD drive to start/stop and the virtual audio card to adjust volume) that you can easily do this on a new machine with new software, but one might still want to play with old CD player software I suppose, so someone might have done this?


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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows ME installation problems        Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:22 pm 
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DOS wrote:
Are there any emulators that emulate that analog connection between the CD drive and the sound card? I never really though about that before. Obviously you can ignore any emulators that only support .iso files, since they don't have audio tracks, so I think that would exclude VMware - I don't remember seeing any VMware products support anything other than .iso. Emulating this seems a bit pointless, because the emulated PC has such a small amount of involvement here (it's not processing the audio, it's just telling the virtual CD drive to start/stop and the virtual audio card to adjust volume) that you can easily do this on a new machine with new software, but one might still want to play with old CD player software I suppose, so someone might have done this?


Well, 86Box emulates the Play Audio (0x45, 0xA5 or 0x47) commands, which is the traditional way of playing audio, the more recent way would be playing audio through the Read CD command (0xBE)

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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows ME installation problems        Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:52 am 
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- DOS: PCem and 86Box do emulate that analog CD Audio connection.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows ME installation problems        Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:58 am 
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Just out of curiosity: why would you need to emulate the classic audio CD experience on a virtual machine? Wouldn't it be more hipster to actually acquire a real old machine and play CDs on that? I have Toshiba 420CDT with WFW 3.11 installed. It's very good for 3.11, because it has official video drivers for 16 million-color display, audio, also with Netgear FA411 it easily connects to internet. Anyway, it is too weak to play MP3 320, they are freezing, but thanks to that direct CD-ROM - sound card connection DOS was referring too - CDs play smooth and fine. That's a cool experience :)


Last edited by Dabrowski on Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows ME installation problems        Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:20 pm 
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Dabrowski wrote:
Just out of curiosity: why would you need to emulate the classic audio CD experience on a virtual machine? Wouldn't it be more hipster to actually acquire a real old machine and play CDs on that? I have Toshiba 420CDT with WFW 3.11 installed. It's very good for 3.11, because it has official video drivers for 16 million-color display, audio, also with Netgear FA411 it easily connects to internet. Anyway, it is no weak to play MP3 320, they are freezing, but thanks to that direct CD-ROM - sound card connection DOS was referring too - CDs play smooth and fine. That's a cool experience :)

CD-ROM games in the 1990s often had regular CD Audio tracks on the disc which the computer would play straight from the drive to the soundcard to serve background music. This saved precious CPU power, since instead of the CPU decoding either large uncompressed or (by 90s standards) high bitrate compressed audio files, the disc drive would just play whatever track the software tells it to and pumps it straight to the soundcard as analog audio, mixed in with the other audio. So emulating this can be important for games that need it for BGM playback. Sure, a game could use lower bitrate compressed audio to skip this, but then the BGM would sound really, really poor, and CD audio is excellent in comparison.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows ME installation problems        Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:55 pm 
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DanielOosterhuis wrote:
CD-ROM games in the 1990s often had regular CD Audio tracks on the disc which the computer would play straight from the drive to the soundcard to serve background music. This saved precious CPU power, since instead of the CPU decoding either large uncompressed or (by 90s standards) high bitrate compressed audio files, the disc drive would just play whatever track the software tells it to and pumps it straight to the soundcard as analog audio, mixed in with the other audio. So emulating this can be important for games that need it for BGM playback. Sure, a game could use lower bitrate compressed audio to skip this, but then the BGM would sound really, really poor, and CD audio is excellent in comparison.

Interesting. Does Quake(1996) CD use the same technology? Trent Reznor's soundtrack was never released on audio cd, but still there are FLAC rips around


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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows ME installation problems        Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:00 pm 
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Dabrowski wrote:
Just out of curiosity: why would you need to emulate the classic audio CD experience on a virtual machine? Wouldn't it be more hipster to actually acquire a real old machine and play CDs on that? I have Toshiba 420CDT with WFW 3.11 installed. It's very good for 3.11, because it has official video drivers for 16 million-color display, audio, also with Netgear FA411 it easily connects to internet. Anyway, it is too weak to play MP3 320, they are freezing, but thanks to that direct CD-ROM - sound card connection DOS was referring too - CDs play smooth and fine. That's a cool experience :)


86Box is an emulator not a virtual machine, and supports true color video cards as well.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows ME installation problems        Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:43 am 
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Dabrowski wrote:
Interesting. Does Quake(1996) CD use the same technology?


Yes, so if you get Quake from Steam it doesn't have the music. I see that on the FTP here, Quake is available in MDF format, which should mean that it includes the audio tracks.

I guess that if we want to discuss CD audio tracks any further, someone should create a new thread and post the link here, since we're straying off topic. The OP might not care about this stuff :)


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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows ME installation problems        Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:12 pm 
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VirtualBox and VMWare work different on different machines: There is people who cannot use VirtualBox for WIn9x, other sure it's best, same with VMWare, but with VMWare it uses to work same almost in very machine. IMO I would reccomend using VPC if you're using 7 or the modded VPC that works in Windows 8 and 10

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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows ME installation problems        Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:17 am 
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SistemaRayoXP wrote:
VirtualBox and VMWare work different on different machines: There is people who cannot use VirtualBox for WIn9x, other sure it's best, same with VMWare, but with VMWare it uses to work same almost in very machine. IMO I would reccomend using VPC if you're using 7 or the modded VPC that works in Windows 8 and 10

Even when modified, Virtual PC 2007 won't work on Windows 10 64-bit, it does work on the 32-bit edition though.


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