Was non-NT and pre XP Windows really an operating system?
Was non-NT and pre XP Windows really an operating system?
consumer versions of Windows up until Windows XP, were all based on DOS, as in they can be described more like a complicated and large program that ran on DOS, and excluding Millennium Edition, they allowed you to use DOS if you wanted or needed.
Windows NT versions got rid of DOS in the early 90's, and Windows consumer versions got rid of DOS with Windows XP.
Windows needs drivers for hardware to work right, and there are programs designed for Windows, even as far back as to Windows 1.0.
So to me it seems a little weird to describe early windows as a program because what other program has programs written for it?
But yet, at the same time, computers without early windows could run fine, because DOS was the true operating system, and was required before you could install and then even use Windows.
Windows NT versions got rid of DOS in the early 90's, and Windows consumer versions got rid of DOS with Windows XP.
Windows needs drivers for hardware to work right, and there are programs designed for Windows, even as far back as to Windows 1.0.
So to me it seems a little weird to describe early windows as a program because what other program has programs written for it?
But yet, at the same time, computers without early windows could run fine, because DOS was the true operating system, and was required before you could install and then even use Windows.
"You go love your enemies, don't go loving mine. My enemies are the theocratic fascists, I don't love them, I want to destroy them!" - Christopher Hitchens (1949-2011)
Re: Was non-NT and pre XP Windows really an operating system
Seems this topic pops up every two or three years here...
Let me quote wikipedia regarding operating systems:
"An operating system (OS) is system software that manages computer hardware and software resources and provides common services for computer programs. All computer programs, excluding firmware, require an operating system to function."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operating_system
By that definition any Windows system is an operating system by itself as programs require it to run, and Windows manages the hardware and provides common services for the applications under it.
Let me quote wikipedia regarding operating systems:
"An operating system (OS) is system software that manages computer hardware and software resources and provides common services for computer programs. All computer programs, excluding firmware, require an operating system to function."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operating_system
By that definition any Windows system is an operating system by itself as programs require it to run, and Windows manages the hardware and provides common services for the applications under it.
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Re: Was non-NT and pre XP Windows really an operating system
I guess. Probably the most you could say is that early Windows was an operating system which required an operating system to run.mrpijey wrote:Seems this topic pops up every two or three years here...
Let me quote wikipedia regarding operating systems:
"An operating system (OS) is system software that manages computer hardware and software resources and provides common services for computer programs. All computer programs, excluding firmware, require an operating system to function."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operating_system
By that definition any Windows system is an operating system by itself as programs require it to run, and Windows manages the hardware and provides common services for the applications under it.
"You go love your enemies, don't go loving mine. My enemies are the theocratic fascists, I don't love them, I want to destroy them!" - Christopher Hitchens (1949-2011)
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Re: Was non-NT and pre XP Windows really an operating system
You also needed MS-DOS to bootstrap Netware OS. This didn't make Netware any less OS. Older versions of Linux could bootstrap from DOS using the small LOADLIN program. Some older laptops used this trick with certain Cardbus/PCMCIA chips to get them recognized by linux drivers initializing these chips under DOS first with the help of vendor DOS "enablers". That also didn't make Linux less OS.Twiggy wrote:So to me it seems a little weird to describe early windows as a program because what other program has programs written for it?
But yet, at the same time, computers without early windows could run fine, because DOS was the true operating system, and was required before you could install and then even use Windows.
If you want modern examples... You can operate a PC just fine from UEFI using the UEFI shell. You can even play games from it and edit stuff, proving you have .EFI games and .EFI editor programs... This doesn't make Linux/Windows8-10/MacOS less OS, and UEFI the "true operating system", as you call DOS, under them.
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Re: Was non-NT and pre XP Windows really an operating system
You know what defines an operating system?
Re: Was non-NT and pre XP Windows really an operating system
A program does not have to be Firmware to not need an Operating System. It just needs to be self-contained, using the BIOS strictly as a loader.
Re: Was non-NT and pre XP Windows really an operating system
By that reasoning, DOS is not an operating system, but Windows 9x is.rloew wrote:A program does not have to be Firmware to not need an Operating System. It just needs to be self-contained, using the BIOS strictly as a loader.
Re: Was non-NT and pre XP Windows really an operating system
Some old systems had DOS in ROM.xelloss wrote:By that reasoning, DOS is not an operating system, but Windows 9x is.rloew wrote:A program does not have to be Firmware to not need an Operating System. It just needs to be self-contained, using the BIOS strictly as a loader.
"You go love your enemies, don't go loving mine. My enemies are the theocratic fascists, I don't love them, I want to destroy them!" - Christopher Hitchens (1949-2011)
Re: Was non-NT and pre XP Windows really an operating system
DOS is an Operating System since it provides services to other Programs. I said a standalone, non-firmware Program does not need to be an Operating System.xelloss wrote:By that reasoning, DOS is not an operating system, but Windows 9x is.rloew wrote:A program does not have to be Firmware to not need an Operating System. It just needs to be self-contained, using the BIOS strictly as a loader.
Firmware, such as BIOSes, can be Operating Systems as well.
Re: Was non-NT and pre XP Windows really an operating system
But DOS does not use the BIOS strictly as a loader.rloew wrote:DOS is an Operating System since it provides services to other Programs. I said a standalone, non-firmware Program does not need to be an Operating System.xelloss wrote:By that reasoning, DOS is not an operating system, but Windows 9x is.rloew wrote:A program does not have to be Firmware to not need an Operating System. It just needs to be self-contained, using the BIOS strictly as a loader.
Firmware, such as BIOSes, can be Operating Systems as well.
Re: Was non-NT and pre XP Windows really an operating system
So! I never said it was a requirement. There is can be more than one level of Operating System at the same time.xelloss wrote:But DOS does not use the BIOS strictly as a loader.rloew wrote:DOS is an Operating System since it provides services to other Programs. I said a standalone, non-firmware Program does not need to be an Operating System.xelloss wrote:By that reasoning, DOS is not an operating system, but Windows 9x is.rloew wrote:A program does not have to be Firmware to not need an Operating System. It just needs to be self-contained, using the BIOS strictly as a loader.
Firmware, such as BIOSes, can be Operating Systems as well.
I was giving examples of what can be, not what must be.
Re: Was non-NT and pre XP Windows really an operating system
Erm, you used the word "need". Nevermind, this whole topic is pointless.rloew wrote:So! I never said it was a requirement.
Re: Was non-NT and pre XP Windows really an operating system
You need to read more carefully.xelloss wrote:Erm, you used the word "need". Nevermind, this whole topic is pointless.rloew wrote:So! I never said it was a requirement.
I never said "need". I always said "not need".
"Not need" cannot introduce a "requirement".
Re: Was non-NT and pre XP Windows really an operating system
rloew wrote:You need to read more carefully.xelloss wrote:Erm, you used the word "need". Nevermind, this whole topic is pointless.rloew wrote:So! I never said it was a requirement.
I never said "need". I always said "not need".
"Not need" cannot introduce a "requirement".
Emphasis mine, and just for the record.rloew wrote:A program does not have to be Firmware to not need an Operating System. It just needs to be self-contained, using the BIOS strictly as a loader.