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 PostPost subject: Was non-NT and pre XP Windows really an operating system?        Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:05 pm 
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consumer versions of Windows up until Windows XP, were all based on DOS, as in they can be described more like a complicated and large program that ran on DOS, and excluding Millennium Edition, they allowed you to use DOS if you wanted or needed.

Windows NT versions got rid of DOS in the early 90's, and Windows consumer versions got rid of DOS with Windows XP.



Windows needs drivers for hardware to work right, and there are programs designed for Windows, even as far back as to Windows 1.0.

So to me it seems a little weird to describe early windows as a program because what other program has programs written for it?

But yet, at the same time, computers without early windows could run fine, because DOS was the true operating system, and was required before you could install and then even use Windows.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Was non-NT and pre XP Windows really an operating system        Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:12 pm 
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Seems this topic pops up every two or three years here...

Let me quote wikipedia regarding operating systems:

"An operating system (OS) is system software that manages computer hardware and software resources and provides common services for computer programs. All computer programs, excluding firmware, require an operating system to function."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operating_system

By that definition any Windows system is an operating system by itself as programs require it to run, and Windows manages the hardware and provides common services for the applications under it.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Was non-NT and pre XP Windows really an operating system        Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:30 pm 
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mrpijey wrote:
Seems this topic pops up every two or three years here...

Let me quote wikipedia regarding operating systems:

"An operating system (OS) is system software that manages computer hardware and software resources and provides common services for computer programs. All computer programs, excluding firmware, require an operating system to function."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operating_system

By that definition any Windows system is an operating system by itself as programs require it to run, and Windows manages the hardware and provides common services for the applications under it.


I guess. Probably the most you could say is that early Windows was an operating system which required an operating system to run. :P

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 PostPost subject: Re: Was non-NT and pre XP Windows really an operating system        Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:52 pm 
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Twiggy wrote:
So to me it seems a little weird to describe early windows as a program because what other program has programs written for it?

But yet, at the same time, computers without early windows could run fine, because DOS was the true operating system, and was required before you could install and then even use Windows.


You also needed MS-DOS to bootstrap Netware OS. This didn't make Netware any less OS. Older versions of Linux could bootstrap from DOS using the small LOADLIN program. Some older laptops used this trick with certain Cardbus/PCMCIA chips to get them recognized by linux drivers initializing these chips under DOS first with the help of vendor DOS "enablers". That also didn't make Linux less OS.

If you want modern examples... You can operate a PC just fine from UEFI using the UEFI shell. You can even play games from it and edit stuff, proving you have .EFI games and .EFI editor programs... This doesn't make Linux/Windows8-10/MacOS less OS, and UEFI the "true operating system", as you call DOS, under them.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Was non-NT and pre XP Windows really an operating system        Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:14 am 
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You know what defines an operating system?

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 PostPost subject: Re: Was non-NT and pre XP Windows really an operating system        Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:00 am 
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A program does not have to be Firmware to not need an Operating System. It just needs to be self-contained, using the BIOS strictly as a loader.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Was non-NT and pre XP Windows really an operating system        Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:42 am 
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rloew wrote:
A program does not have to be Firmware to not need an Operating System. It just needs to be self-contained, using the BIOS strictly as a loader.

By that reasoning, DOS is not an operating system, but Windows 9x is.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Was non-NT and pre XP Windows really an operating system        Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:50 am 
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xelloss wrote:
rloew wrote:
A program does not have to be Firmware to not need an Operating System. It just needs to be self-contained, using the BIOS strictly as a loader.

By that reasoning, DOS is not an operating system, but Windows 9x is.


Some old systems had DOS in ROM.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Was non-NT and pre XP Windows really an operating system        Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:27 am 
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xelloss wrote:
rloew wrote:
A program does not have to be Firmware to not need an Operating System. It just needs to be self-contained, using the BIOS strictly as a loader.

By that reasoning, DOS is not an operating system, but Windows 9x is.

DOS is an Operating System since it provides services to other Programs. I said a standalone, non-firmware Program does not need to be an Operating System.
Firmware, such as BIOSes, can be Operating Systems as well.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Was non-NT and pre XP Windows really an operating system        Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:26 pm 
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rloew wrote:
xelloss wrote:
rloew wrote:
A program does not have to be Firmware to not need an Operating System. It just needs to be self-contained, using the BIOS strictly as a loader.

By that reasoning, DOS is not an operating system, but Windows 9x is.

DOS is an Operating System since it provides services to other Programs. I said a standalone, non-firmware Program does not need to be an Operating System.
Firmware, such as BIOSes, can be Operating Systems as well.

But DOS does not use the BIOS strictly as a loader.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Was non-NT and pre XP Windows really an operating system        Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:26 pm 
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xelloss wrote:
rloew wrote:
xelloss wrote:
rloew wrote:
A program does not have to be Firmware to not need an Operating System. It just needs to be self-contained, using the BIOS strictly as a loader.

By that reasoning, DOS is not an operating system, but Windows 9x is.

DOS is an Operating System since it provides services to other Programs. I said a standalone, non-firmware Program does not need to be an Operating System.
Firmware, such as BIOSes, can be Operating Systems as well.

But DOS does not use the BIOS strictly as a loader.

So! I never said it was a requirement. There is can be more than one level of Operating System at the same time.
I was giving examples of what can be, not what must be.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Was non-NT and pre XP Windows really an operating system        Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:08 pm 
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rloew wrote:
So! I never said it was a requirement.

Erm, you used the word "need". Nevermind, this whole topic is pointless.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Was non-NT and pre XP Windows really an operating system        Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:53 am 
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xelloss wrote:
rloew wrote:
So! I never said it was a requirement.

Erm, you used the word "need". Nevermind, this whole topic is pointless.

You need to read more carefully.
I never said "need". I always said "not need".
"Not need" cannot introduce a "requirement".


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 PostPost subject: Re: Was non-NT and pre XP Windows really an operating system        Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:03 pm 
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rloew wrote:
xelloss wrote:
rloew wrote:
So! I never said it was a requirement.

Erm, you used the word "need". Nevermind, this whole topic is pointless.

You need to read more carefully.
I never said "need". I always said "not need".
"Not need" cannot introduce a "requirement".


rloew wrote:
A program does not have to be Firmware to not need an Operating System. It just needs to be self-contained, using the BIOS strictly as a loader.

Emphasis mine, and just for the record.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Was non-NT and pre XP Windows really an operating system        Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:45 pm 
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xelloss wrote:
rloew wrote:
xelloss wrote:
rloew wrote:
So! I never said it was a requirement.

Erm, you used the word "need". Nevermind, this whole topic is pointless.

You need to read more carefully.
I never said "need". I always said "not need".
"Not need" cannot introduce a "requirement".


rloew wrote:
A program does not have to be Firmware to not need an Operating System. It just needs to be self-contained, using the BIOS strictly as a loader.

Emphasis mine, and just for the record.

Even that is not a "need" for an Operating System. Just the opposite. It refers to a non-firmware Program that is NOT an Operating System, NOR needs one.


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