FTP and floppy dumps of 1995 and earlier stuff
- Battler
- Donator
- Posts: 2117
- Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:13 am
- Location: Slovenia, Central Europe.
- Contact:
FTP and floppy dumps of 1995 and earlier stuff
Recently over in #softhistory on RoL we've been finding quite a few folder dumps of very old software. For example, Overdoze just obtained English Windows 1.02 and German Windows 2.11, both for Siemens PC-D.
This made me wonder if we could start accepting that for the FTP. Of course, contributions uploaded to gain FTP Access should still be original, but contributions of non-original things (as in, folder dumps) from members who already have FTP Access should be allowed. My reasoning is, with such old software, the more time passes, the less likely it will be for us to ever get original installer media of it, especially with software for non-PC-compatibles and software that is not in English. So by disallowing folder dumps of such software, we are in practice risking to disallow the only copy of such software we might ever get.
This made me wonder if we could start accepting that for the FTP. Of course, contributions uploaded to gain FTP Access should still be original, but contributions of non-original things (as in, folder dumps) from members who already have FTP Access should be allowed. My reasoning is, with such old software, the more time passes, the less likely it will be for us to ever get original installer media of it, especially with software for non-PC-compatibles and software that is not in English. So by disallowing folder dumps of such software, we are in practice risking to disallow the only copy of such software we might ever get.
Main developer of the 86Box emulator.
Join the 86Box Discord server, a nice community for true enthusiasts and 86Box supports!
The anime channel is on the Ring of Lightning Discord server.
Check out our SoftHistory Forum for quality discussion about older software.
Join the 86Box Discord server, a nice community for true enthusiasts and 86Box supports!
The anime channel is on the Ring of Lightning Discord server.
Check out our SoftHistory Forum for quality discussion about older software.
Re: FTP and floppy dumps of 1995 and earlier stuff
I can only agree with this.
By ignoring rare but incomplete or preinstalled versions we lose significant part of program's history. Moreover, there's a big chance that the full version of some OS or program will never be found on original disks (or at least as complete installable version). It's impossible to imagine archeologists exploring egyptian pyramids with an attitude: "contents of this tomb is incomplete, let's ignore it".
So I think there should be an option to preserve such releases on the Betaarchive as well.
By ignoring rare but incomplete or preinstalled versions we lose significant part of program's history. Moreover, there's a big chance that the full version of some OS or program will never be found on original disks (or at least as complete installable version). It's impossible to imagine archeologists exploring egyptian pyramids with an attitude: "contents of this tomb is incomplete, let's ignore it".
So I think there should be an option to preserve such releases on the Betaarchive as well.
- TheCollector1988
- Donator
- Posts: 3604
- Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:11 am
- Location: Italy
- Contact:
Re: FTP and floppy dumps of 1995 and earlier stuff
I agree, especially for the fact that when no original media can't be found at the moment but only folder dumps are available of it, and one of these cases is Win1.03 PC98, which is a pre-installed dump on a floppy but no original media is available at the moment, and this release is missing from the PC98 iirc.
Re: FTP and floppy dumps of 1995 and earlier stuff
Obviously I agree with this, since I came across several rather rare pieces of software that just aren't available in a better form. Not to mention I've always supported keeping the best shape of a program, until a better one is found. So if the best we have right now is a pre-installed hard disk image, we keep that until original floppies are obtained. As Battler said, this only applies to members who already have FTP access, new members still have to stick with the guidelines.
I really don't see how keeping a working CHD hard disk image (along with instructions on how to use it) on the FTP until actual floppy images are provided would hurt anyone or anything.
I really don't see how keeping a working CHD hard disk image (along with instructions on how to use it) on the FTP until actual floppy images are provided would hurt anyone or anything.
All roads lead to Neptune™
KRNL386 - my site about retro computing | My site about Windows 1.0 | My blog | 86Box Manager | LeakDB - list of PC OS warez leaks
KRNL386 - my site about retro computing | My site about Windows 1.0 | My blog | 86Box Manager | LeakDB - list of PC OS warez leaks
Re: FTP and floppy dumps of 1995 and earlier stuff
I agree as well, because some of the software is rare, or aren't available in a better form. And if someone is trying to offer a DR4 (THERE IS NOT A DR4, THIS IS AN EXAMPLE) it would possibly be hard to dump, and they wouldn't get accepted. But they should no matter what. No matter how rare and old it was 1995 and earlier.
-Meow_2004
------------------------------
PC Specs:
Old PC
Dell XPS 630i
Intel Core 2 Quad (2.4 GHz)
Nvidia GeForce GTX 760
1 TB HDD
Windows 10
Current PC
Gigabyte B450M DS3H-CF
AMD Ryzen 5 2600 6-Core (3.4 GHz)
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1080 Ti
1TB NVMe SSD
x2 1TB HDDs
Windows 10
------------------------------
PC Specs:
Old PC
Dell XPS 630i
Intel Core 2 Quad (2.4 GHz)
Nvidia GeForce GTX 760
1 TB HDD
Windows 10
Current PC
Gigabyte B450M DS3H-CF
AMD Ryzen 5 2600 6-Core (3.4 GHz)
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1080 Ti
1TB NVMe SSD
x2 1TB HDDs
Windows 10
-
longhornwhistler
- Donator
- Posts: 320
- Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2014 5:29 pm
- Location: Inside Your Computer
Re: FTP and floppy dumps of 1995 and earlier stuff
I agree with this as well. The older the software, the harder it is going to be to get copies off of original media, and the longer we wait, the more likely they are to disappear.
"Sometimes when you innovate, you make mistakes. It is best to admit them quickly, and get on with improving your other innovations." - Steve Jobs
Check out my YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqZBjx ... C1dNISF8ZQ
Check out my YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqZBjx ... C1dNISF8ZQ
Re: FTP and floppy dumps of 1995 and earlier stuff
If you mean preinstalled folder dumps then no. I have enough work to do without having to add more work by adding non-original folder dumps alike those found on every other abandonware site. I worked all these years to make BA stand apart from those sites by having original installer versions only that has been tested and verified, and even better to have full scans and all with it.
It just takes too much extra time to start adding folder dumps and I rather put that time into processing original dumps instead. Remember, I am still the only one that can process these files and for the time being it has to remain like that since no one else wants to put in the time and effort needed to help maintain the FTP. But by all means, put the folder dumps up on some sharing site and make a thread and sort them here, or put them on an other site for reference until we can get the proper floppy/disc dumps.
There are better ways to archive these folder dumps without taking up my time and still have them available to the members. It is a good idea to keep rare folder dumps, but I am frankly not willing to put in the time needed to maintain that. I can barely keep up with the stuff we already have without having an avalanche of folder dumps rolling in onto the upload FTP too.
It just takes too much extra time to start adding folder dumps and I rather put that time into processing original dumps instead. Remember, I am still the only one that can process these files and for the time being it has to remain like that since no one else wants to put in the time and effort needed to help maintain the FTP. But by all means, put the folder dumps up on some sharing site and make a thread and sort them here, or put them on an other site for reference until we can get the proper floppy/disc dumps.
There are better ways to archive these folder dumps without taking up my time and still have them available to the members. It is a good idea to keep rare folder dumps, but I am frankly not willing to put in the time needed to maintain that. I can barely keep up with the stuff we already have without having an avalanche of folder dumps rolling in onto the upload FTP too.
Official guidelines: Contribution Guidelines
Channels: Discord :: Twitter :: YouTube
Misc: Archived UUP
- Battler
- Donator
- Posts: 2117
- Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:13 am
- Location: Slovenia, Central Europe.
- Contact:
Re: FTP and floppy dumps of 1995 and earlier stuff
You're assuming we'll ever get proper floppy/disc dumps. But the more time passes, and the older the release, the less probability is there for that to happen. That's why we need to lower the standard for older things because the "improper" copy might be the only copy we'll ever see. People throw away their old floppies a lot, and of those that remain, they won't last forever - the more time it passed, the more of them will rot beyond recovery.But by all means, put the folder dumps up on some sharing site and make a thread and sort them here, or put them on an other site for reference until we can get the proper floppy/disc dumps.
Also, I really don't like this argument of "just put it onto another site" - few people have the financial resources to maintain such a site. Sure, my SoftHistory might be good to start with, but that when if traffic increases, what am I going to pay for it with? And how am I going to get exposure to my site? WinWorld, Old-Dos.ru, and VetusWare tend to have a lot of mislabels and other things since not much checking is done on their releases. So what alternative remains for proper cataloguing and preservation of those folder dumps?
Main developer of the 86Box emulator.
Join the 86Box Discord server, a nice community for true enthusiasts and 86Box supports!
The anime channel is on the Ring of Lightning Discord server.
Check out our SoftHistory Forum for quality discussion about older software.
Join the 86Box Discord server, a nice community for true enthusiasts and 86Box supports!
The anime channel is on the Ring of Lightning Discord server.
Check out our SoftHistory Forum for quality discussion about older software.
Re: FTP and floppy dumps of 1995 and earlier stuff
I never asked nor will I ever ask for a full time effort, but anyone that wants to help out is asked for a commitment and not just a one time thing. All members that contribute software help out as they can, but managing and sorting a whole new section requires more than just uploading the stuff, and I have yet to meet a member that does this without giving up after a week. You've been perhaps the most helpful member on BA helping us with weeding out the bad Win/DOS releases and yet you've been spared all the extra work needed to make your effort available to everyone; which is renaming, repacking, uploading, backing up, maintaining the software, hardware, internet connection and everything else that goes beyond the testing and reporting a title for BetaArchive. That's why I rely on members like you, because there's no chance in hell I would have the time or knowledge to test every piece of software if I also needed to do everything else to make sure you and all the members can have access to it afterwards. And I might add, at no cost at all as none of you pay any fees to access the stuff. Everyone contributes to the extent they are able to, but no one is forced to pay for access.
And you don't think I have other things to do too? That's exactly why I can't put in the extra time needed to maintain a whole new section of non-original folder dumps which actually adds a lot more workload and takes away important and limited time from the more important releases.
And why do you assume that BetaArchive must keep every piece of bit and byte found on the net? That has never been our goal, we got 500000+ other abandonware sites on the net for that which keeps preinstalled, patched, cracked and modified unoriginal software. Our abandonware goal has always been to first and foremost have an original dump of the media, and we've stretched so far that we allow folder dumps of original installer media, but even then we try to our best ability to recreate the layout of the original floppies and discs to make sure we're as close to the original as possible. Going away from this would only make our archive quality worse and more diluted with even less original releases which is the exact opposite of what all of us are trying to do for BetaArchive.
Why don't you work on SoftHistory and make it a home for these folder dumps? If a lot of members feel these folder dumps are worth keeping then it would be a great platform to cooperate around making SoftHistory a repository for those, while we here work at what we already do best, working towards archiving the original media. And if you can't afford the increased traffic then it's understandable, but that doesn't mean BetaArchive can afford infinite traffic, storage and manpower to cover everything other sites can't handle. Our time is limited too and we want to put it where it does the most good. The upkeep and current status of BetaArchive is not proof that Andy and I have infinite resources, but proof that we carefully put the limited resources we have into something we believe in. If BA relied entirely on member donations BA would have been shut down about a month after it was launched. There's more to BA than just hosting and traffic costs, but you know all about this. You don't even want to know what kind of money Andy and I spent on hardware, software and bandwidth just to make sure you and others can have a site to upload and download original software from. But we do it freely because we want BetaArchive to do something others don't, which is to be a repository of original software and not just an another dumping ground for random software. Ever since the original FTP got cleaned up from the random junk we've set a higher standard of what the archive should contain. Quality first, quantity second. The day that ceases to exist on BetaArchive is the day I quit.
Personally, from an abandonware fan point of view, I agree that these folder dumps are better than nothing, but I don't feel it's right for BA, and I don't feel it's right to use the limited resources we have to focus on something that overall lessens the quality of the archive and takes us away from what makes BetaArchive better than the other sites that carry abandonware. Because if all we want is to store abandonware in any form or shape then we could have just used some other abandonware site, or Internet Archive and save us a lot of time and trouble from chasing members for good scans, kryoflux and A120 dumps and original factory grade media.
And you don't think I have other things to do too? That's exactly why I can't put in the extra time needed to maintain a whole new section of non-original folder dumps which actually adds a lot more workload and takes away important and limited time from the more important releases.
And why do you assume that BetaArchive must keep every piece of bit and byte found on the net? That has never been our goal, we got 500000+ other abandonware sites on the net for that which keeps preinstalled, patched, cracked and modified unoriginal software. Our abandonware goal has always been to first and foremost have an original dump of the media, and we've stretched so far that we allow folder dumps of original installer media, but even then we try to our best ability to recreate the layout of the original floppies and discs to make sure we're as close to the original as possible. Going away from this would only make our archive quality worse and more diluted with even less original releases which is the exact opposite of what all of us are trying to do for BetaArchive.
Why don't you work on SoftHistory and make it a home for these folder dumps? If a lot of members feel these folder dumps are worth keeping then it would be a great platform to cooperate around making SoftHistory a repository for those, while we here work at what we already do best, working towards archiving the original media. And if you can't afford the increased traffic then it's understandable, but that doesn't mean BetaArchive can afford infinite traffic, storage and manpower to cover everything other sites can't handle. Our time is limited too and we want to put it where it does the most good. The upkeep and current status of BetaArchive is not proof that Andy and I have infinite resources, but proof that we carefully put the limited resources we have into something we believe in. If BA relied entirely on member donations BA would have been shut down about a month after it was launched. There's more to BA than just hosting and traffic costs, but you know all about this. You don't even want to know what kind of money Andy and I spent on hardware, software and bandwidth just to make sure you and others can have a site to upload and download original software from. But we do it freely because we want BetaArchive to do something others don't, which is to be a repository of original software and not just an another dumping ground for random software. Ever since the original FTP got cleaned up from the random junk we've set a higher standard of what the archive should contain. Quality first, quantity second. The day that ceases to exist on BetaArchive is the day I quit.
Personally, from an abandonware fan point of view, I agree that these folder dumps are better than nothing, but I don't feel it's right for BA, and I don't feel it's right to use the limited resources we have to focus on something that overall lessens the quality of the archive and takes us away from what makes BetaArchive better than the other sites that carry abandonware. Because if all we want is to store abandonware in any form or shape then we could have just used some other abandonware site, or Internet Archive and save us a lot of time and trouble from chasing members for good scans, kryoflux and A120 dumps and original factory grade media.
Official guidelines: Contribution Guidelines
Channels: Discord :: Twitter :: YouTube
Misc: Archived UUP
Re: FTP and floppy dumps of 1995 and earlier stuff
There is no need to maintain your own site. Just shove it into archive.org, put up some useful metadata (e.g. tag every upload with "BetaArchive" or something) and link them in a thread here so that they can easily be found.Battler wrote:Also, I really don't like this argument of "just put it onto another site" - few people have the financial resources to maintain such a site.
If required I can provide a HOWTO, but quite frankly, uploading there is not rocket science
I linke the idea of a loosely-connected (second) website run by one of the other BA admins. I mean it takes the load away from mrpijey, and if there is indeed as much momentum for such a site as shown in this thread, then there'll be no problem to get this thing up and running.mrpijey wrote:Why don't you work on SoftHistory and make it a home for these folder dumps? If a lot of members feel these folder dumps are worth keeping then it would be a great platform to cooperate around making SoftHistory a repository for those, while we here work at what we already do best, working towards archiving the original media.
I upload stuff to archive.org from time to time. See here for everything that doesn't fit BA
Re: FTP and floppy dumps of 1995 and earlier stuff
Um, run by one of the other BA admins? I hope you mean moderators as neither Andy or I will run such a site, and last time I checked we only had two admins . But yeah, put it on a different site and make a thread here wouldn't be a problem as long as those releases follow the rules on BA, as we won't allow linking to cracked releases or releases with serials, keygens etc.
Official guidelines: Contribution Guidelines
Channels: Discord :: Twitter :: YouTube
Misc: Archived UUP
Re: FTP and floppy dumps of 1995 and earlier stuff
Yeah, sorry, I wanted to say "staff" not "admin"
I upload stuff to archive.org from time to time. See here for everything that doesn't fit BA
- Battler
- Donator
- Posts: 2117
- Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:13 am
- Location: Slovenia, Central Europe.
- Contact:
Re: FTP and floppy dumps of 1995 and earlier stuff
That kind of thing tends to be forbidden on SoftHistory as well.mrpijey wrote:as we won't allow linking to cracked releases or releases with serials, keygens etc.
Main developer of the 86Box emulator.
Join the 86Box Discord server, a nice community for true enthusiasts and 86Box supports!
The anime channel is on the Ring of Lightning Discord server.
Check out our SoftHistory Forum for quality discussion about older software.
Join the 86Box Discord server, a nice community for true enthusiasts and 86Box supports!
The anime channel is on the Ring of Lightning Discord server.
Check out our SoftHistory Forum for quality discussion about older software.
Re: FTP and floppy dumps of 1995 and earlier stuff
Battler, forum should be redesigned in terms of rules, topics and layout for better suiting the history and modern times. You've got the point. But what about the community projects - this should go into their own places.
SoftHistory would be good place for dumps like another server for community projects (I would start mine server soon), and for betaarchive - it should be the place for things as it is now (beta, old software, sources..). BUT to achieve immersion, we should somewhat connect it to each other, maybe?
SoftHistory would be good place for dumps like another server for community projects (I would start mine server soon), and for betaarchive - it should be the place for things as it is now (beta, old software, sources..). BUT to achieve immersion, we should somewhat connect it to each other, maybe?
Well, hello friends!