Windows 10X Public Preview discussion

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Windows 10X Public Preview discussion

Post by Derf »

Was a bit surprised to see no discussion of today's release of the Windows 10X Public Preview and associated developer tools, now available on Microsoft's official website here:
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dual-s ... -dev-tools

Basic Information
Build Number - 10.0.19563.1000.amd64fre.rs_prerelease.200206-1533
Release Date - February 11, 2020

Summary
In summary, Microsoft has today released what they're calling a public preview of Windows 10X, the new variant of Windows engineered with dual screen devices in mind, as well as developer tools required to begin developing for the platform. The Windows 10X Developer Preview is available via a Windows 10X Emulator Image intended to be used alongside the Microsoft Emulator, which requires a 64-bit Windows 10 Pro, Enterprise, or Education Hyper-V compatible system running Windows 10 build 19555 or later. It is not intended nor is it currently possible to be installed standalone.

Notable Changes
  • Win32 applications are run in containers, and will not be able to manipulate system data, unlike Windows 10. This means that Win32 applications will not be able to install drivers or background system processes and services - think anticheat software in games, or Dropbox.
  • Microsoft Edge & Microsoft Office run in a special "shim" to circumvent the new limitations introduced to Win32 apps
  • Windows 10X introduces new Javascript and CSS proposals meant to help webapps understand and adapt to dual screen devices, which will be added in the new Chromium-based Edge browser.
  • Due to the way Windows 10X has been engineered with what the company calls "special state separation," Microsoft announced today that Windows 10X updates will take 'less than 90 seconds' on most systems
  • Twitter user NTAuthority seems to have become the first person to successfully run Windows 10X on actual hardware, having successfully installed the emulator image on a Lenovo T480s
Screenshots
Image
OOBE - Screenshot by @gus33000 on Twitter

Image
Desktop + Start Menu - Screenshot by @StrictlyOsprey on Twitter

Image
Action Center - Screenshot by @ZacBowden on Twitter

Image
BSOD - Screenshot by @teroalhonen on Twitter

Last updated February 12, 2020 to include a successful install of Windows 10X on actual hardware
Last edited by Derf on Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Windows 10X Public Preview discussion

Post by yourepicfailure »

That new start menu looks very much like the one in last year's xbox lab builds.

Those builds may have been indev tests of some of the features destined for this edition.
I would not doubt it if some of the other features shown in this edition were present in those builds.

10X? Sounds like a bit of naming from derived from "rs_Xbox."
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Re: Windows 10X Public Preview discussion

Post by princezackttr »

I'll be interested to see those 'less than 90 second' updates in action, if that claim holds any water that is. ;)

Other than that though, I'll definitely be trying out this preview when I find the time, it looks interesting.

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Re: Windows 10X Public Preview discussion

Post by mibrab »

I'd just like to note that unlike standard bare Hyper-V, the 10 X emulator also requires support for nested virtualization. While both AMD and Intel CPUs support this in hardware, Hyper-V currently does not support nested virtualization on AMD hosts. As far as I'm aware, this limitation also affects Windows 10 X itself, so if you were to deploy the image to a computer with an AMD host, it would not work either (not 100% sure about that though).

Also one interesting thing to note about this edition is that the image is actually a storage pool consisting of multiple partitions, where the Windows folder resides on a partition that is separate from the rest of the data. The data partition keeps a structure that strongly resembles your standard C:\ layout though, the Windows folder is just a hardlink to the other partition.
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Re: Windows 10X Public Preview discussion

Post by Stannieman »

Microsoft Edge & Microsoft Office run in a special "shim" to circumvent the new limitations introduced to Win32 apps
This feels a bit like cheating doesn't it?
First you say that the container setup should be enough for most apps, and then your own 2 most-used (probably?) already use tricks to workaround the limitations. Tricks which are also not available for any other devs.
But well, it is what it is :o

I really do like the UI though. Is this all WinUI 3.0?
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Re: Windows 10X Public Preview discussion

Post by JimOlive »

I'm guessing Windows 10X will be for phones or tablets?

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Re: Windows 10X Public Preview discussion

Post by Winins »

JimOlive wrote:I'm guessing Windows 10X will be for phones or tablets?
No, it will be for dual screen PCs like Surface Neo.
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Re: Windows 10X Public Preview discussion

Post by DanielOosterhuis »

mibrab wrote:I'd just like to note that unlike standard bare Hyper-V, the 10 X emulator also requires support for nested virtualization. While both AMD and Intel CPUs support this in hardware, Hyper-V currently does not support nested virtualization on AMD hosts. As far as I'm aware, this limitation also affects Windows 10 X itself, so if you were to deploy the image to a computer with an AMD host, it would not work either (not 100% sure about that though).

Also one interesting thing to note about this edition is that the image is actually a storage pool consisting of multiple partitions, where the Windows folder resides on a partition that is separate from the rest of the data. The data partition keeps a structure that strongly resembles your standard C:\ layout though, the Windows folder is just a hardlink to the other partition.
It doesn't seem to let you obtain the image if you have an AMD host. Unless I'm doing something wrong, the Microsoft Store page for the image blanks out the regular download button, and only accepts voucher codes. I think on Intel machines, it should just let you download it.
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Re: Windows 10X Public Preview discussion

Post by missingno »

mibrab wrote:Also one interesting thing to note about this edition is that the image is actually a storage pool consisting of multiple partitions, where the Windows folder resides on a partition that is separate from the rest of the data. The data partition keeps a structure that strongly resembles your standard C:\ layout though, the Windows folder is just a hardlink to the other partition.
I figured as much, but has anyone figured out how to mount the VMDK and actually open the pool partitions?
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Re: Windows 10X Public Preview discussion

Post by Windows OS »

DanielOosterhuis wrote: It doesn't seem to let you obtain the image if you have an AMD host. Unless I'm doing something wrong, the Microsoft Store page for the image blanks out the regular download button, and only accepts voucher codes. I think on Intel machines, it should just let you download it.
I was able to download it on my Ryzen 7 3800X machine running the latest Insider build (the requirements on the Store state that you need build 19555 or higher).

The emulator will not launch the image tho, because of the aforementioned AMD incompatibility, and while it will boot if you throw the VHDX to a Hyper-V VM (which I did mainly for shits n' giggles), it will lock up with a black screen and a cursor. But, you can still access the VHDX image.
missingno wrote: I figured as much, but has anyone figured out how to mount the VMDK and actually open the pool partitions?
I was able to mount the image by attaching a drive letter to the "Data" partition. Like what mibrab stated, the Windows folder is a link to the other partition which actually contains the files for the Windows folder.

In terms of my personal opinions on Windows 10X, again, I wasn't able to run the emulator, but from what I saw, it does look promising IMO, despite being pretty buggy rn (this is still prerelease software released in a image for a glorified VM made for developer testing only). I think of it as "Windows 8 done right", in terms of a UI designed for its form factor. But, unlike with Windows 8, where it tried to stuff a UI that was designed for touch over a preexisting UI and operating system designed for keyboard and mouse, and where the majority of users of it didn't even have a touch screen, Windows 10X is designed from the kernel up for the form factor its targeting, and it's only available (at least officially, see NT Authority getting it running on a Lenovo laptop) on devices with said form factor. It kinda reminds me of how iOS related to macOS (being a system with a similar kernel but with a different UI designed for the form factor it's running on), but with the ability to run desktop apps.

But, I did notice that some people were already dismissing Windows 10X as "another Windows RT" or whatever before the image even came out, while personally, I would want to give a chance with, at the very least, a VM that I can actually run, before I would declare it to be DOA. In fact, I feel that it (or rather WCOS in general) has the potential to be the big re-architecture that Windows 10 IMO needed for quite a while.
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Re: Windows 10X Public Preview discussion

Post by kw259 »

missingno wrote:
mibrab wrote:Also one interesting thing to note about this edition is that the image is actually a storage pool consisting of multiple partitions, where the Windows folder resides on a partition that is separate from the rest of the data. The data partition keeps a structure that strongly resembles your standard C:\ layout though, the Windows folder is just a hardlink to the other partition.
I figured as much, but has anyone figured out how to mount the VMDK and actually open the pool partitions?
If you're on Windows 10 Enterprise, just open "Manage Storage Spaces", and hit "View Files" on any of the spaces within the OSPool.
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Re: Windows 10X Public Preview discussion

Post by JimOlive »

Winins wrote:
JimOlive wrote:I'm guessing Windows 10X will be for phones or tablets?
No, it will be for dual screen PCs like Surface Neo.
Looking at pictures, the Surface Neo certainly looks like a tablet. It just has a hinge, that's all. I suspect Google/Samsung (Android) could make a much better OS for such a device.

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Re: Windows 10X Public Preview discussion

Post by MrBurgerKing »

Stannieman wrote:This feels a bit like cheating doesn't it?
M$ has always been more "do as we say, not as we do.". They already tried to move everyone onto metro-style uwp with Windows 8/RT, but kept most of their own applications as win32. They didn't even bother to develop a Metro-ui file explorer.
This hipocracy definitely sends a message to devs. M$ can brag about "LTE 5G multi-sense cloud-connected powered by AI experiences" but we'll see whether they can actually solve the chicken-and-egg hardware-software platform problem this time.

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Re: Windows 10X Public Preview discussion

Post by JimOlive »

Not sure if anyone else has tried yet, but I've gotten classic explorer working in Windows 10X, using explorer.exe from my physical machine.

"Classic" Explorer:
Image

Winver:
Image

Using the Registry Editor, I can tell you the full build-string is:

Code: Select all

19563.1000.amd64fre.rs_prerelease.200206-1533
If this wasn't already known.

I also noticed it has references to the name "ContainerOS". For example, explorer.exe has "ContainerOS Explorer", instead of "Windows Explorer". "ContainerOS" can also be found in the Registry. Is this a codename or something?
Last edited by JimOlive on Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Windows 10X Public Preview discussion

Post by JimOlive »

Another thing I found is a "screensaver" called uwfservicingscr. It doesn't exist in standard Windows 10, and it looks like this:
Image

I'm guessing Windows Update will use this while updating a device. It's worth noting that the Photos screensaver still exists in this build, and it only uses the left monitor. So obviously this "screensaver" has been configured for this build.

I also tried it on my actual machine (not on the emulator), and it works just fine there too, in single screen.
Last edited by JimOlive on Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Windows 10X Public Preview discussion

Post by LuLu »

JimOlive wrote: I suspect Google/Samsung (Android) could make a much better OS for such a device.
and they will
this will be probably enforced on ms only devices ... but then again why would anyone use them

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Re: Windows 10X Public Preview discussion

Post by grabberslasher »

JimOlive wrote:Not sure if anyone else has tried yet, but I've gotten classic explorer working in Windows 10X, using explorer.exe from my physical machine.

"Classic" Explorer:
Image

Winver:
Image

Using the Registry Editor, I can tell you the full build-string is:

Code: Select all

19563.1000.amd64fre.rs_prerelease.200206-1533
If this wasn't already known.

I also noticed it has references to the name "ContainerOS". For example, explorer.exe has "ContainerOS Explorer", instead of "Windows Explorer". "ContainerOS" can also be found in the Registry. Is this a codename or something?
ContainerOS is where the Win32 virtualization occurs; you're not running the app natively, you're seeing the results from the legacy Windows VM. For the record, it already has a copy of explorer.exe which you can launch from e.g. the Windows Terminal, but all legacy apps are going to be partitioned away from the main OS and natively-running code.

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Re: Windows 10X Public Preview discussion

Post by Winins »

JimOlive wrote:
Winins wrote:
JimOlive wrote:I'm guessing Windows 10X will be for phones or tablets?
No, it will be for dual screen PCs like Surface Neo.
Looking at pictures, the Surface Neo certainly looks like a tablet. It just has a hinge, that's all.
The Surface Neo is confirmed to be a dual screen PC. There are lots of different dual screen PC meant to be released and Windows 10X is meant to be bundled with it.
JimOlive wrote:I suspect Google/Samsung (Android) could make a much better OS for such a device.
For the Surface Duo (which is a tablet) there is an optimized version of Android available for the such device.
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Re: Windows 10X Public Preview discussion

Post by JimOlive »

Winins wrote:
JimOlive wrote:
Winins wrote:
JimOlive wrote:I'm guessing Windows 10X will be for phones or tablets?
No, it will be for dual screen PCs like Surface Neo.
Looking at pictures, the Surface Neo certainly looks like a tablet. It just has a hinge, that's all.
The Surface Neo is confirmed to be a dual screen PC. There are lots of different dual screen PC meant to be released and Windows 10X is meant to be bundled with it.
JimOlive wrote:I suspect Google/Samsung (Android) could make a much better OS for such a device.
For the Surface Duo (which is a tablet) there is an optimized version of Android available for the such device.
Personally I wouldn't consider it to be a PC if it's a portable device without a keyboard, not to mention if its running a proprietary OS like Android, or Windows 10X.

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Re: Windows 10X Public Preview discussion

Post by JimOlive »

grabberslasher wrote:
JimOlive wrote:Not sure if anyone else has tried yet, but I've gotten classic explorer working in Windows 10X, using explorer.exe from my physical machine.

"Classic" Explorer:
Image

Winver:
Image

Using the Registry Editor, I can tell you the full build-string is:

Code: Select all

19563.1000.amd64fre.rs_prerelease.200206-1533
If this wasn't already known.

I also noticed it has references to the name "ContainerOS". For example, explorer.exe has "ContainerOS Explorer", instead of "Windows Explorer". "ContainerOS" can also be found in the Registry. Is this a codename or something?
ContainerOS is where the Win32 virtualization occurs; you're not running the app natively, you're seeing the results from the legacy Windows VM. For the record, it already has a copy of explorer.exe which you can launch from e.g. the Windows Terminal, but all legacy apps are going to be partitioned away from the main OS and natively-running code.
I know it already has a copy of Explorer; that's where I got "ContainerOS Explorer" from. I'm not sure what this Terminal is, as I don't see it as an app in the main OS, though you can use Notepad to access explorer.exe.

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Re: Windows 10X Public Preview discussion

Post by Octal450 »

Personally, I am not a fan of this design language. Its too Apple like, too simplified.

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Re: Windows 10X Public Preview discussion

Post by Little Owl »

I think the interface feels too simplified, but I can see a potential where you interact with the left screen and see the result on the right. For example, in Photoshop you do the detailed painting on the left screen and see the preview of your artwork in progress on the right.

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Re: Windows 10X Public Preview discussion

Post by Lingling »

MrBurgerKing wrote:
Stannieman wrote:They already tried to move everyone onto metro-style uwp with Windows 8/RT, but kept most of their own applications as win32. They didn't even bother to develop a Metro-ui file explorer.
There is a UWP File Explorer in Windows 10. It's just hidden. Also, MS's apps are mostly winRT/UWP, such as Cortana, Settings, Calculator, Edge and many more.

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Re: Windows 10X Public Preview discussion

Post by gtgamer468 »

Then again, would you do more serious tasks like gaming or managing a server in a dual screen PC that shares similar specs to a present-day 2 in 1?

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Re: Windows 10X Public Preview discussion

Post by Meow »

Is it possible to install in VirtualBox?
Try switching the windows 3.0 ega driver with windows 1.01’s. it will be fun.

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