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 PostPost subject: Windows 11 (or a future release) may be open-sourced        Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:08 am 
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I was saying that: a release of Windows will be open sourced, or codes will be leaked. Why? I set up a theory about open source software... and it's happening step-by-step! Here is a proof (I hope more will come):

http://www.cnet.com/news/could-windows- ... rce-maybe/

Also, you know that .NET 4.0 and Windows driver frameworks are open source now!

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Last edited by cantasan99 on Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 11 (or a future release) may be open-sourced        Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:22 am 
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That's a wildly speculative and misleading title on your topic there.

One guy who has no bearing on the making of such a decision does not have any impact on how likely or unlikely such a move would be.

Also. No. .NET 4.0 is not open source. There's the reference source available in a program that Microsoft refers to as "shared source" - but that's not considered open source. What you're probably thinking of is .NET Core, which is open source, is being ported to Linux and OSX, but is not the .NET Framework. It's a cut down subset of the CLR currently specifically aimed at running Web Applications.

No idea where you got "WMI is open source" from.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 11 (or a future release) may be open-sourced        Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:00 pm 
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hounsell wrote:
That's a wildly speculative and misleading title on your topic there.

One guy who has no bearing on the making of such a decision does not have any impact on how likely or unlikely such a move would be.

Also. No. .NET 4.0 is not open source. There's the reference source available in a program that Microsoft refers to as "shared source" - but that's not considered open source. What you're probably thinking of is .NET Core, which is open source, is being ported to Linux and OSX, but is not the .NET Framework. It's a cut down subset of the CLR currently specifically aimed at running Web Applications.

No idea where you got "WMI is open source" from.


Sorry, I mis-remembered WMI, the correct one is Windows driver frameworks. Also edited my main post.

.NET Framework? *sigh*, Mono is our helper. But can't MS turn whole .NET into open source with this wind?

You are right also, one man can't decide the future of MS, but if anybody that has important position in MS can say that, it's... the startup of a big hurricane.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 11 (or a future release) may be open-sourced        Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:54 pm 
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cantasan99 wrote:
But can't MS turn whole .NET into open source with this wind?


Of course it can't. You probably don't remember how hard it was to open source Java. It's not "let's just publish the source control branch on pastebin and it's done".

Same with Windows. NT4 requires an insane build enviornment toolchain that still hasn't been 100% rebuilt to work with everything, I can only imagine how big it is for NT 10.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 11 (or a future release) may be open-sourced        Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 1:27 pm 
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NT 6 being open source would mean huge insecurity
don't think of just left over backdoors but also unpatched bugs

and you think they'd give their latest codebase just like that "out"

hehehe


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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 11 (or a future release) may be open-sourced        Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 3:20 pm 
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wasabilee wrote:
NT 6 being open source would mean huge insecurity


This is the most laughable reason for not open source.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 11 (or a future release) may be open-sourced        Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 4:53 pm 
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wasabilee, if your opinon were real, Linux would have been the worst OS in the world... and Haiku... and OS X (okay, not fully open, just kernel stuff). In contrast, NT would be more secure!

rthdribl, there may be some hard stuff about that (3rd party etc) but if this are determined, problems will be solved sooner or later.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 11 (or a future release) may be open-sourced        Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 6:06 pm 
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Because it's open source doesn't mean it's automatically safe and good. It still takes a lot of people to actually review all the code and understand it, not something that is done automatically because the dev choose to show the source. *nix had its share of long time standing and hard detected severe bugs as well. Also, the opposite could be said about Linux too, if it's so incredibly good then why is it mostly confined to closed box servers and enthusiasts rather than being the defacto number one operating system in the computer world?

And Microsoft releasing the source for Windows? Hardly... not within the next 4-5 Windows generations at least. Not until they completely switch to a subscription model where their main revenue comes from services and not the software itself. As long as they profit on the software you won't see it open sourced.

Also, open source != free. There are many open source licenses that limits your uses to the same of a closed source software. Because you can see the source won't mean you can do whatever you want with it either.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 11 (or a future release) may be open-sourced        Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 7:57 pm 
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hounsell wrote:
Also. No. .NET 4.0 is not open source. There's the reference source available in a program that Microsoft refers to as "shared source" - but that's not considered open source.

I think an important distinction needs to be made between the two (as you have done). When Microsoft announced its intentions to publish NGSCB source code under its shared source initiative, critics believed that it would be open source in order to comply with U.S. copyright laws which mandated open source code.
mrpijey wrote:
Because it's open source doesn't mean it's automatically safe and good. It still takes a lot of people to actually review all the code and understand it, not something that is done automatically because the dev choose to show the source.

So very much this, mrpijey. As a more recent example, one critical security vulnerability in Linux apparently remained undetected for over 10 years (!!) http://www.reddit.com/r/netsec/comments ... ll/cfuhffv

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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 11 (or a future release) may be open-sourced        Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:18 pm 
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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 11 (or a future release) may be open-sourced        Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:55 pm 
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Most of the big bugs in *nux get found within months.

It takes more than a decade to discover a big bug in Windows.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 11 (or a future release) may be open-sourced        Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 4:20 am 
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MrFreeman wrote:
Most of the big bugs in *nux get found within months.

Well thank heavens that the burden of proof lies with the one making the claim. Do you have any evidence that suggests what you say is true, MrFreeman? And how would one quantify an amount of bugs as 'most' in the sense that you define it? Would it take one bug? Five bugs? 10 bugs? 1,000 bugs? Just how many bugs represents an amount that is the most, MrFreeman?

MrFreeman wrote:
It takes more than a decade to discover a big bug in Windows.

Note that it is statistically unlikely that all—or a majority—of the vulnerabilities that are mentioned here were only discovered after a decade or later. https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/lib ... 31937.aspx

Similarly with your claim above, how does one determine whether a bug is serious enough to be considered 'big'? Are all security vulnerabilities serious enough to be considered or are only certain security vulnerabilities (e.g., ones that have recently been discovered or ones that enable remote code execution)? Can glitches other than security vulnerabilities ever be considered serious? If so, why? If not, why not?

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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 11 (or a future release) may be open-sourced        Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:17 am 
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Some more breaking news that I just found on the Internet:

  • Windows 11 (or a future release) may run native Linux binaries
  • Windows 11 (or a future release) may power your microwave
  • Windows 11 (or a future release) may feature an AI kernel
  • Windows 11 (or a future release) may be the last Windows version ever
  • Windows 11 (or a future release) may need more than 50gb of diskspace
  • Windows 11 (or a future release) may get rid of crashes entirely

It's funny how powerful the combination of the words (or a future release) and may can be... I mean it's really really hard to be any more vague in what you're saying than this

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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 11 (or a future release) may be open-sourced        Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:23 am 
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Open Source is by no means a cure-all. OpenSSL is living proof that a successful, open-source project can still be an utterly terrible piece of software, unfit for purpose.

I think ultimately, Microsoft will probably move to a more open-source model. The model of corporate-backed open source is essentially winning out at this stage as the most cost-effective way to do large scale software development. What has largely been ignored though in this topic so far, is the fact any move to open-source is going to be a very gradual process. Cantasan brings up .NET open source for example, but the process essentially started in 2007/2008 when they open-sourced some extra libraries, and its steadily grown in scope since then to the very large amount of .NET open source today. Windows will likely be much the same, but on a much greater scale. It's likely that small parts will be open-sourced as and when deemed appropriate. They're not about to just create a Windows github account and commit the entire build tree for Windows.

There's a number of reasons Microsoft haven't released the entirety of .NET as open source for example. There's no doubt some legal issues they'd have to work through first, but probably the most compelling reason is that it simply isn't the product they want to push any more. Microsoft are making it very clear that smaller, more componentised products are their future - .NET Core is going to be a larger part of the future of .NET than the full-fat framework. It wouldn't surprise me if this is also the case with Windows. As they modernise it and cut it down into independent components further and further, then its those new components that stand the best chance of becoming open source. The old legacy cruft is probably never going to get open sourced.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 11 (or a future release) may be open-sourced        Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:44 pm 
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hounsell wrote:
OpenSSL is living proof that a successful, open-source project can still be an utterly terrible piece of software, unfit for purpose.


Thankfully systemd hasn't eaten up OpenSSL, so there are still alternatives out there like GnuTLS.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 11 (or a future release) may be open-sourced        Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:31 pm 
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If I may share my opinion, ReactOS nearly got it right; their vision makes sense, but they are merely under-staffed, leading to a perpetual pre-release state (currently @ 0.3.17 with 0.4 planned). The patent problem the project faces is the unstable (i.e. incomplete) NT kernel clone it runs on, and if anyone would simply combine a "battle tested", solid kernel such as a BSD or even a Gnu/Linux with the win32 environment clone on top for the end user, I believe that would stand a real chance against XP at the least. Alas, after using and writing free software for years now, it does not appear like such a thing will be a reality... but really, who knows? I might try doing such a thing if I had time to s/spare/waste/ on it. :D

I guess after seeing Freedows, Lindows/Linspire, and other projects fail over time, it changes one's perspective a bit. But realistically, all this speculation over the next release of Windows being open sourced is what I'd dismiss as folly. Windows *will* be free (in price) eventually, as this is where the OS land is going, but it would take a miracle for Redmond to open it. Pragmatically, a hybrid source model, like (Mac) OS X, could realistically exist, but a "true" free/libre version of Windows following the open source model goes against the entire foundation/history/etc. of Microsoft. Even if such a cataclysmic shift was to occur, it would be subject to their whims and would not be free as in the pursuit of liberty. Tragically, it seems that Gen Z's get confused with software being "open source" and being "free software"...

There is, however, this beautiful thing called hope, and I could very well be wrong about the whole thing. But if not, then the only hope for an "open source Windows" would be if one was built. A toast to React OS.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 11 (or a future release) may be open-sourced        Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 3:30 pm 
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What the hell is going on? MS is starting to destroy leaked NT 4.0/2000 code instead of being more open source!


You know... every rise has a fall. No matter what MS does, it won't be able to save itself. Ask me, "have you drunk, what the f*** are you saying again, it's pointless" etc etc...

Currently, there's 3 important platforms for OSes: PCs, servers, mobile (tablets/phones). Linux kernel has taken advantage in servers, majorly mobile platform in form of Android. What's left? PC. MS still dictates? Right. By 2020 or 2025, this will change and world will be more open source. NSA back-doors? Major viruses/trojans/hacks? Scandals? Stuff that for forcing PCs to get slower, updating your system? Will be not completely gone but majorly gone, you'll see.

If Apple gets OS X working in all PCs, that may be another step for beating MS. But... everything has a price, and they won't want losing money.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 11 (or a future release) may be open-sourced        Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:24 pm 
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cantasan99 wrote:
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What the hell is going on? MS is starting to destroy leaked NT 4.0/2000 code instead of being more open source!


<...curtailed ranting...>

If Apple gets OS X working in all PCs, that may be another step for beating MS. But... everything has a price, and they won't want losing money.


1. It surprises you that companies have an interest in protecting their intellectual property? What planet do you live on?

2. Which is exactly what they won't do. Apple is very much interested in keeping OS X locked down to their hardware. Point being that Apple makes money on (you guessed it!) hardware.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 11 (or a future release) may be open-sourced        Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:25 pm 
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cantasan99 wrote:
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What the hell is going on? MS is starting to destroy leaked NT 4.0/2000 code instead of being more open source!


You know... every rise has a fall. No matter what MS does, it won't be able to save itself. Ask me, "have you drunk, what the f*** are you saying again, it's pointless" etc etc...

Currently, there's 3 important platforms for OSes: PCs, servers, mobile (tablets/phones). Linux kernel has taken advantage in servers, majorly mobile platform in form of Android. What's left? PC. MS still dictates? Right. By 2020 or 2025, this will change and world will be more open source. NSA back-doors? Major viruses/trojans/hacks? Scandals? Stuff that for forcing PCs to get slower, updating your system? Will be not completely gone but majorly gone, you'll see.

If Apple gets OS X working in all PCs, that may be another step for beating MS. But... everything has a price, and they won't want losing money.


What do you expect MS to do? Of course they're going to issue take down notices for the Windows NT 4 / Windows 2000 source. Legally, there's very compelling reasons that they are obliged to. Even if they were to suddenly open-source Windows 10, they may well still issue takedown requests for NT4/2000 source for a number of reasons.

Curious that you mention Android, an "open" project in name only. You can hardly call that a triumph for open-source when Google took an entirely open-source project and have reduced their contribution to the legally required minimum lip service to the whole concept of open source.

NSA back-doors? No evidence these exist in the sense of deliberately inserted security flaws in retail products. It'd be a suicidal move for any company to do so - what the NSA can exploit, so can millions of criminals the world over, and ofc, the NSA's enemies. Major viruses/trojans/hacks? Would not be dented in the slightest by open-source. There's no evidence to suggest that the "many eyes" theory actually improves security - see OpenSSL - but its pointless anyway, because most malware today is spread through manipulating the user into deliberately compromising their own security. Open source doesn't fix stupid, which, I know, is terrible news for you. Scandals? Not sure how open-source keeps the CEO's pants on, but sure, if you want to explain this, I'm all ears. How does open-source end scandals? And actually, isn't all the butthurt about Linus Torvalds' "management style" proof that scandals, a fundamentally human problem, is just as rife in the open source community? Or how about Hans Reiser? Is killing your wife not scandalous enough for you? Stuff that for forcing PCs to get slower, updating your system? We're truly in the realms of fantasy now. Microsoft do not release updates to make your PC run slower so that you go out to buy the latest Windows.

As for Apple, they have absolutely no desire to support anything beyond their own hardware with OSX. They're primarily a devices company rather than a software company. They make their software to help sell their hardware, not the other way around.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 11 (or a future release) may be open-sourced        Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:22 pm 
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Win10 will be the last standalone version of Windows

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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 11 (or a future release) may be open-sourced        Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 9:09 am 
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Resident007 wrote:
Win10 will be the last standalone version of Windows


We all know that, did you read the title of the topic? Windows 11 or a future release!

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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 11 (or a future release) may be open-sourced        Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:25 am 
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cantasan99 wrote:
Resident007 wrote:
Win10 will be the last standalone version of Windows


We all know that, did you read the title of the topic? Windows 11 or a future release!

Windows 10 *is* the last release. Microsoft will not make a Windows 11 since 10 is the last release.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 11 (or a future release) may be open-sourced        Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 2:24 am 
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yeh right...

then again, its all playing with words
just like NT 5 wasn't NT 5 but Windows 2000

for all you know, next OS cycle can be called Banana 1.0


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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 11 (or a future release) may be open-sourced        Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 6:44 pm 
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DarkerJ wrote:
cantasan99 wrote:
Resident007 wrote:
Win10 will be the last standalone version of Windows


We all know that, did you read the title of the topic? Windows 11 or a future release!

Windows 10 *is* the last release. Microsoft will not make a Windows 11 since 10 is the last release.

And anyway, that was said since 7 was released, and there was 8 and 8.1 after. Anyway, don't call it Windows 11. People called Threshold Windows 9, only to be suprised that it's actually called 10.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 11 (or a future release) may be open-sourced        Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:50 am 
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