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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 8.1's Start Button in action (Video)        Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 4:22 am 
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WinPC wrote:
Derf wrote:
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The Start Button is making a triumphant return in Windows 8.1. That much we knew. What we weren’t 100% sure about was how it would work – would we also be seeing the return of the Start Menu, or would it simply act as a link to Windows 8′s Start Screen? Well, today we conclusively have an answer to that very question – and many old fashioned Windows “purists” won’t be happy. According to a newly uploaded video of a confirmed genuine Windows 8.1 pre-release build that Microsoft showed off at Computex 2013, the Windows 8.1 Start Button will merely act as a straightforward link to the Start Screen, essentially making it no different aside from visibility from Windows 8′s “Start tip”. Hovering over the Start Button, which is again shaped as the Windows flag, transforms the button into the logo with whatever Start Screen color the user has set in Personalization. Clicking the button triggers a cool new “swooping” animation that brings Windows 8.1′s redesigned Start Screen to the forefront in what I can only say is a very appealing manner.
The old Start button is NOT returning in Windows 8.1. What has changed about the Start tip is that they changed its appearance, but they are not going back to an old way. All it does is this: It looks different. But it's still every bit as much the same as it was in Windows 8, functionality-wise.

Yes, there are people who think that Microsoft is going back to an old way, but this is not the case at all. A theme redesign does not change any of the functions in an operating system, period. And in this case, the "theme redesign" happened to be for something so small anyway that it doesn't even really matter much at all.

So there is no "triumphant return", really. All it is, really, is an update to the taskbar's appearance, at most, and nothing beyond that.

Why is it so hard to get the fact that the start menu is NOT returning through their thick skulls?

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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 8.1's Start Button in action (Video)        Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 4:33 am 
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NHL fan wrote:
Why is it so hard to get the fact that the start menu is NOT returning through their thick skulls?
They're talking about the old Windows Vista/7 Start button, not the Start Menu. Just thought that I would make it clearer.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 8.1's Start Button in action (Video)        Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 4:55 am 
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WinPC wrote:
NHL fan wrote:
Why is it so hard to get the fact that the start menu is NOT returning through their thick skulls?
They're talking about the old Windows Vista/7 Start button, not the Start Menu. Just thought that I would make it clearer.

That's what I meant. ;)

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 PostPost subject: Re: Start Button Appears in Latest Windows 8.1 Build.        Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:09 am 
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WinPC wrote:
Derf wrote:
Nobody said the old Start button was reappearing. Don't know what your rant was for.
Actually, Derf, as much as I hate to say it, they actually did say that:
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The Start Button is making a triumphant return in Windows 8.1. That much we knew.
Nothing against you at all, but that was what the article said.

Actually, the article said that the start button is making a return. It is. It never said the OLD Start Button was reappearing.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Start Button Appears in Latest Windows 8.1 Build.        Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 3:23 pm 
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Derf wrote:
WinPC wrote:
Derf wrote:
Nobody said the old Start button was reappearing. Don't know what your rant was for.
Actually, Derf, as much as I hate to say it, they actually did say that:
Quote:
The Start Button is making a triumphant return in Windows 8.1. That much we knew.
Nothing against you at all, but that was what the article said.

Actually, the article said that the start button is making a return. It is. It never said the OLD Start Button was reappearing.
But in that regard, it was never really removed, just hidden by default until you move your mouse pointer over to the lower left corner of the screen.

And Microsoft itself has even said that what they are doing is "changing the appearance of the Start tip to the Windows logo". It's the same function, period, just with a new look. So nothing is "returning" at all, contrary to what people are being led to believe.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Start Button Appears in Latest Windows 8.1 Build.        Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 3:48 pm 
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The Start button per say was in fact "removed" from Windows 8, why else would several developers need to make something that looked like the old Start button? What people perceive as the start button is the square or round button at the edge of the screen pulling up a menu filled with shortcuts to applications. That never existed in Windows 8, instead you had a hidden square popping up when pulling the mouse into the edge which brought you to the Metro (yes, it's not called that but for the sake of argument...) screen - a full page screen filled with shortcuts. That's not a "start button", that's a mere shortcut or just a plain function to move from one screen to an another. In that regard it was in fact removed and WinPC is completely right, if Microsoft intend to bring back "a menu popping up by clicking a symbol representing the old Start button" then it is indeed returning. No point discussing semantics but there's a clear difference between clicking a symbol and be brought to a completely new full screen page (as it does in Windows 8) and clicking a symbol and be presented with a list of shortcuts (as it does all the way from Windows 95 to Windows 7).

What Windows 8 has is not a "Start button", not at all. It's just a shortcut to bring you to the main Metro screen. Nothing else.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Start Button Appears in Latest Windows 8.1 Build.        Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:16 am 
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mrpijey is correct, there is no start button in Windows 8. You can verify it by tabbing through the taskbar.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Start Button Appears in Latest Windows 8.1 Build.        Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:45 pm 
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kinokijuf wrote:
mrpijey is correct, there is no start button in Windows 8. You can verify it by tabbing through the taskbar.
And the so-called "Start button" in Windows 8.1 is really just a different appearance for the Start tip, and nothing more. If it's the same function, then how could an old function possibly be returning?


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 PostPost subject: Re: Start Button Appears in Latest Windows 8.1 Build.        Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:45 pm 
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Nobody said the old function is returning, just the Start Button. Which it is.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Start Button Appears in Latest Windows 8.1 Build.        Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:34 am 
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Derf wrote:
Nobody said the old function is returning, just the Start Button. Which it is.
Nothing personal against you or anything, but you really need to look at it from a professional point of view.

No old function is "returning" at all (as many people seem to make out). What happened is that it looks different, but that doesn't mean that it actually is. Ask someone knowledgeable such as hounsell, and you will probably receive even more of that same answer than I myself could possibly prove.

It's like with Aero - they never removed it at all, just the old Aero theme. Well, the same thing has happened here: They're not progressing back at all, they're just repainting the current Start tip to give a different appearance. But it's still the Start tip, period, visible or invisible, and you still access it in very much the same way, regardless of how it appears to the eyes of most long-time Windows users.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Start Button Appears in Latest Windows 8.1 Build.        Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:36 am 
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You clearly can't read. I just said that nobody said that old functionality is returning. Just the actual BUTTON. Which is. That's just simple fact.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Start Button Appears in Latest Windows 8.1 Build.        Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:28 pm 
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And the START BUTTON is returning, therefor making my statement valid. Can't you read? I never said it would function exactly the same. Stop wasting my time.

EDIT: Sorry for the unintentional double post, there was another WinPC response prior to this that somehow got deleted.


Last edited by Derf on Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Start Button Appears in Latest Windows 8.1 Build.        Posted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:19 pm 
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Agreed, WinPC needs to read better; Derf said the Start Button is returning, not the Start Menu.
Also, not trying to backseat moderate (sorry if I am), but Derf, try not to double post.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Start Button Appears in Latest Windows 8.1 Build.        Posted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:22 am 
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mattpegler wrote:
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Above is a link to TechnoBuffalo and their latest post about Windows 8.1, after reading it, what do you think?
I have predicted the start button will like that when they started developed Windows 8.1 (on my mind)

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 PostPost subject: Re: Start Button Appears in Latest Windows 8.1 Build.        Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:30 pm 
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NHL fan wrote:
Agreed, WinPC needs to read better; Derf said the Start Button is returning, not the Start Menu.
Also, not trying to backseat moderate (sorry if I am), but Derf, try not to double post.
My point is that if there is no functional change, then only the appearance is different. If it's just the same Start tip (as Microsoft said), then why would it even count as a "returning feature"?

Microsoft even said in a video that they "change the Start tip to the Windows logo", and that's it. There is nothing "new" other than how it appears. If it looks different but behaves the same, then it is the same feature, period.

This is not meant as an attack against Derf either, just that I don't agree that this counts as a "returning feature". If the function is the same, then it's the same. It looks different, but it's the same as in Windows 8, and the only "feature" that is returning is that it is always visible from the desktop, and that's it. It's such a small change at that, that it hardly even counts as a feature at that.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Start Button Appears in Latest Windows 8.1 Build.        Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 10:39 pm 
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If it existed in one version, and didn't in another, but then comes back, it's a returning feature.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Start Button Appears in Latest Windows 8.1 Build.        Posted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:17 pm 
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James wrote:
If it existed in one version, and didn't in another, but then comes back, it's a returning feature.
That's what is called a theme. A lot of people seem not to understand the difference between a feature and a theme.

Certainly, Aero Glass was also replaced in Windows 8 with Aero Lite, but that doesn't really count as a different "feature", yet a lot of people thought that it did. Well, the same is true here.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Start Button Appears in Latest Windows 8.1 Build.        Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:46 am 
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False. This is more than a theme tweak. Please learn what you're talking about before you spout more damaging inaccurate information.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Start Button Appears in Latest Windows 8.1 Build.        Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:39 pm 
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WinPC wrote:
James wrote:
If it existed in one version, and didn't in another, but then comes back, it's a returning feature.
That's what is called a theme.

So... if the start menu did come back (which it won't) meaning it would be in Windows 7, not in Windows 8, then back in 8.1, it would be called a theme? I don't think so.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Start Button Appears in Latest Windows 8.1 Build.        Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:35 pm 
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NHL fan wrote:
WinPC wrote:
James wrote:
If it existed in one version, and didn't in another, but then comes back, it's a returning feature.
That's what is called a theme.

So... if the start menu did come back (which it won't) meaning it would be in Windows 7, not in Windows 8, then back in 8.1, it would be called a theme? I don't think so.
Only he's not talking about the menu, but the button itself.
Derf wrote:
False. This is more than a theme tweak. Please learn what you're talking about before you spout more damaging inaccurate information.
More than a theme tweak? Sorry, but if all it does is bring the user back to the Start screen, as well as appear within the list of Modern UI apps running just like the original Start tip did, then how is it anything more than just a theme tweak?

You can see very clearly that they are virtually the same function, since they both are there only to bring the user to the Start screen, as well as to appear within the list of apps running, and nothing else has changed apart from being visible at all times while on the desktop. My point is that if they both do the same things, then how is there any significant difference apart from the appearance?


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 PostPost subject: Re: Start Button Appears in Latest Windows 8.1 Build.        Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:30 am 
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It's not a theme, get that through your head.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Start Button Appears in Latest Windows 8.1 Build.        Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:05 pm 
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James wrote:
It's not a theme, get that through your head.
But it has the same purpose, so what's the difference feature-wise? Sorry, but I don't understand how this is enough of a change to count as being a "feature".

I mean, they both bring the user back to the Start screen, as well as appear within the list of apps running. What's the difference apart from being visible at all times while on the desktop (unless the latter is what you're referring to)?

Also, could you please provide a proper reason for it being much more than just a theme, and not just posting generic comments such as "It's more than a theme"? As in, not just a mere opinion, but something to actually back it up with proper evidence?


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 PostPost subject: Re: Start Button Appears in Latest Windows 8.1 Build.        Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:11 pm 
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It's probably few lines of code removed from explorer.exe, so it is a feature removal, and now its coming back. Thus, it's not just a theme, it's a returning feature. Is this good enough for you winpc?

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 PostPost subject: Re: Start Button Appears in Latest Windows 8.1 Build.        Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:49 pm 
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Wheatley wrote:
It's probably few lines of code removed from explorer.exe, so it is a feature removal, and now its coming back. Thus, it's not just a theme, it's a returning feature. Is this good enough for you winpc?
The only problem with that is that almost certainly, the same code used to display the original Start tip in Windows 8 is being used to display the so-called "Start button" in Windows 8.1.

I mean, it's possible that they changed the code to make it appear visible at all times, but it still wouldn't be the old code from Windows 7 at all (at least not as far as I know).

Also, I'm really discussing this from a usability standpoint. I mean, they may have changed some of the code for the theme service when Aero Glass was replaced with Aero Lite, but that doesn't mean that the change was significant enough to merit being a new "feature". Well, in my opinion, the same is true here. It appears different, but the function is still the same.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Start Button Appears in Latest Windows 8.1 Build.        Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:58 pm 
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WinPC wrote:
The only problem with that is that almost certainly, the same code used to display the original Start tip in Windows 8 is being used to display the so-called "Start button" in Windows 8.1.


Congrats on proving you are not a developer.

We'll not see for certain til we get a build with these changes, but it simply could not work like that. I'm not entirely convinced by the idea they'll simply bring back the legacy code either. It was absurdly inefficient - by Windows 7, it was actually drawing the entire button twice. Just set the Start Button to a semi-transparent image and see for yourself as you have a smaller, broken start button in the background drawn over by one that works.

Of course, technically speaking, the start button didn't exist in Vista and 7. There was a Start Window instead.

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