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Do we keep service pack betas?
Yeah, keep them! 44%  44%  [ 26 ]
No, delete them to save space! 56%  56%  [ 33 ]
Total votes : 59
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 PostPost subject: Microsoft service pack betas: To be or not to be?        Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:00 pm 
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I am posting this with the hope to create a usable discussion, and to base it on a decision I've been asking and discussing with Andy about.

The main reason for this discussion is based on a real problem we will face on BetaArchive soon, and if it's not solved it will force BetaArchive to make some rather uncomfortable choices, so I am trying to solve the problem. The problem I am talking about is FTP space.

With the work I've been putting in to repack all betas and also adding new ones provided by me and the members (thanks everyone!) the free space has been running out fast. We still have some space, but it doesn't hurt to be pro-active. Windows 7 builds, Windows 2008 R2 builds and perhaps the largest ones - MacOS Snow Leopard builds - has been swallowing up space like a kid chews up candy. And with the upcoming abandonware stuff the space will decline even further. So we are facing three choices:

  • Stop adding betas. This is naturally out of the question since it would halt the development and growth of BetaArchive.
  • Expanding with more harddrive space. We already have one 500GB drive, and we can add three more. Naturally this adds to the cost of running BetaArchive.
  • Change hosting plan. This would not only be problematic, but it would increase the cost a whole lot.

Expanding with more 500GB drives is the most realistic solution at the moment. Changing the hosting plan may be inevitable in the future to add even more space, but for the time being we have to do with what we got. Since BetaArchive is currently running at the mercy of donations the choices we got are quite limited, increasing the cost will only make things harder since it would force users to donate more and even force Andy (and me since I sure want to keep BA alive as long as possible) to pay more out of our pockets to keep the site alive. But we can do some things to preserve space and keep costs down which brings me to the main point:

After looking at the contents of the FTP I notice that the service packs takes up approximately (at the time of writing) 20GB of space. This equals to about 8 Windows 7 builds, or 3 MacOS X builds. It may not be much but remember that every GB counts.

So my question is:

Are the service pack betas really necessary to keep? I understand that a beta community should in theory gather all kind of betas but we are already limiting that to mainly collect Microsoft betas, secondary Apple betas and game betas. We don't collect open source betas nor "irrelevant" betas such of generally unknown software. But are these betas of service packs really needed? A service pack is by definition a collection of fixes for a current line of operating systems and applications. A beta of a service pack is just that, not even completed and finished patches. So we got a collection of betas of fixes that fixes bugs :). On top of that, every succeeding service pack includes the previous one, all including the patches released on Microsoft Update. So a beta of say, SP2 for XP includes all currently released patches, and it patches stuff that may have been patched in SP1 and so on.

So why do we keep these betas? Apart from Service Pack 2 for Windows XP these service packs do not add any new functionality. And they are worthless once the "final" service pack is released. With regular OS/app/game betas we can install and review the development process of functions, UI development, tech ideas etc. With service packs we can't do that since all they do are change core files of an already "completed" piece of software (complete=RTM) into a less buggy version of the same files. Functionality, UI etc is in 99% of the cases never changed.

So my suggestion is simply that BA stops hosting any betas of service packs and save some current and future space on the server. Someone else on BA could host them if wanted (I believe Daniel already does it partially?) and make them available for anyone wanting them.

Opinions please :). I'll keep this thread as a sticky until a decision has been reached, and I've included a poll to simplify the result.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Microsoft service pack betas: To be or not to be?        Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:14 pm 
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I personally see no reason for a beta service pack. Even if they had value of discontinued resources/functions, the chances they can be more than extracted in even the near future is pretty slim.

Also, expand the storage. When you have to place a value on a beta to eliminate low ranking valued wares, you are bound to get rid of something someone wants, they will have a fit, grab a handful of people, and try to spin off yet another forum.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Microsoft service pack betas: To be or not to be?        Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:15 pm 
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You should keep the service packs as sometimes system files are needed for fixes or personal projects, the termsrv.dll from a beta/rc/leaked build (or something) of SP2 allows for multiple connections, something that the normal termsrv.dll doesn't allow. So it's useful to be able to go back and get files like this from beta versions of service packs.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Microsoft service pack betas: To be or not to be?        Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:16 pm 
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I think we should keep them all! I mean - they're betas, and thats what we collect, and we (at least me) dont discriminate against what type of betas. I would say add a 500GB Hard Drive.... Its just a one-time charge, right?

Even if its not, we should preserver all these betas... If you do decide to get rid of them, at least give me time to move them to my FTP :D

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 PostPost subject: Re: Microsoft service pack betas: To be or not to be?        Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:18 pm 
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IMO no, they are completely unnecessary. SP is not a completely new OS, it's just a package of fixes. I think that, when a beta of new SP is leaked you should move it to SP folder, so that everyone may download it (you know, there are lot of viruses on the torrents, it's safer to download it from the BA server), but you should keep only the last beta of given SP. For example, if there would be SP4 for XP (I know it's impossible, but let's assume), all the SPs for XP are deleted, and only the last beta of SP4 stays. And when the final is released, beta is deleted. In that case, the server wouldn't be an archive, but that would save space. I suppose most users download only the last beta, so that wouldn't be too harmful for others.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Microsoft service pack betas: To be or not to be?        Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:25 pm 
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I voted to keep them, because I think that you can remove Apple Betas. They can't be tested by many people, because very little have Macintosh and also I don't think the majority of our community really cares about Mac betas. Just look at this:
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Removing 10 Mac Betas you can save about 70GB! I think that can hold many Windows & Windows SP Builds.
Also I think that the point of BA is to collect beta stuff, not to criticize what is useful or necessary.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Microsoft service pack betas: To be or not to be?        Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:43 pm 
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Hacker?pcs wrote:
I voted to keep them, because I think that you can remove Apple Betas. They can't be tested by many people, because very little have Macintosh and also I don't think the majority of our community really cares about Mac betas. Just look at this:
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Removing 10 Mac Betas you can save about 70GB! I think that can hold many Windows & Windows SP Builds.
Also I think that the point of BA is to collect beta stuff, not to criticize what is useful or necessary.

I think that removing Mac betas is different than removing the Service Packs because the Mac betas don't require anything to be installed on top of it, unlike the SP which needs the RTM to install on top of. However, I do agree that very little can use or care about Mac betas. Also, I see no reason to keep Service Pack betas because they are installed on top of RTM and don't show many (if any) differences compared to the final product.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Microsoft service pack betas: To be or not to be?        Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:50 pm 
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Maybe you should keep all major milestones (Betas, RC) and delete the interim builds

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 PostPost subject: Re: Microsoft service pack betas: To be or not to be?        Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:28 pm 
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Keeping (temporarily) the last one of any given SP build is a good idea. Then people can get it and save it elsewhere if they want to keep it.

As for Mac betas that wasn't the issue here, otherwise I would have brought it up as well. They will stay since BA isn't only a Microsoft forum, it's a BETA forum, which also includes Mac, Amiga, Atari and just about every beta we want to put on it. The reason Microsoft is so dominant is simple, it's the largest and most popular operating system with the absolute majority of users. MacOS is however a growing platform and a very well known one as well, and also a viable option for anyone wanting to run something else than Windows. It's also interesting from a technical point of view. If we were to delete MacOS stuff only because some didn't like Apple products then we could as well get rid of all the games and everything else that doesn't prefix with "Microsoft". The reason I brought up the SP issue is simply because SP:s are a grey zone in terms of usability since they are after all fixes of an existing RTM build.

Nookupeous does bring out an interesting point, but since BA doesn't officially work with or support any custom hacks of Windows I don't see that as a main point to keep every SP beta on the site. We have plenty of user FTP:s on this forum and anyone of them are welcome to host the SP:s as well, still giving every member access to them. But this is my own opinion and I just let you members discuss it and give some pointers.

And motherboardlove, the added harddrive expansion isn't a one time cost, it's a running cost we pay every month. Otherwise it would have been a simple choice just to "buy" a drive and add it whenever it was needed. And the host doesn't allow for the payee to ship his own drive to be connected, it has to rented from the host.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Microsoft service pack betas: To be or not to be?        Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:44 pm 
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I'm with the "delete all useless sp's" opinion. One is enough to remember by. What could be done is that there still exist some backups for those that are interested. (In form of a DVD or something).
Would probably just frustrate some users to constantly receive begs to upload file X and file Y.
It's pretty hard.. I am on with still keeping the files alive somehow since most might feel stupid, but think about something like a NT4 service pack beta? It might have felt stupid to save a thing like that, but I think that interest is in a totally different level now. Time gives it rarity and later on there will follow regret on deleting those and starting to see that they really don't exist anywhere else anymore. ;)
Same thing with public game MP betas, they might seem free and mass distributed now but it wont take many years before people start looking after that kind of stuff (different scale ofcourse than a SP)

So shortly: One major in the ftp, preserve rest in somewhere safe for the future.
Someday even these will be sought after by some users, otherwise they will cease to exist due to no current interest to store anywhere.
Even some Win7 builds that we are getting flooded at will most likely be sought after like similiar windows releases over ten years ago.

I hope you got understood my point of view, slept too little at the time of writing. :f


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 PostPost subject: Re: Microsoft service pack betas: To be or not to be?        Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:46 pm 
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Before you delete, can you at least wait for me to finish DLing them... because of this, I am re-opening my server.

mrpijey wrote:
And motherboardlove, the added harddrive expansion isn't a one time cost, it's a running cost we pay every month. Otherwise it would have been a simple choice just to "buy" a drive and add it whenever it was needed. And the host doesn't allow for the payee to ship his own drive to be connected, it has to rented from the host.


Thats why I host my servers at home...Then OVH cant take your servers hostage and charge you outragously high amounts :P :wink:

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 PostPost subject: Re: Microsoft service pack betas: To be or not to be?        Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:04 am 
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TheWahbinator wrote:
Maybe you should keep all major milestones (Betas, RC) and delete the interim builds


This is the position I'd go with. Unless there are some *really* significant differences (e.g. features that are missing later or the likes), then a beta SP just doesn't really have that much purpose. It isn't like a full build of an OS where you can use it as a measure of changes during the development process - it's a collection of fixes, mostly.

If space is that important and difficult to come by, ditch them. I doubt they'll really be missed.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Microsoft service pack betas: To be or not to be?        Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:09 am 
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STKD wrote:
TheWahbinator wrote:
Maybe you should keep all major milestones (Betas, RC) and delete the interim builds


This is the position I'd go with. Unless there are some *really* significant differences (e.g. features that are missing later or the likes), then a beta SP just doesn't really have that much purpose. It isn't like a full build of an OS where you can use it as a measure of changes during the development process - it's a collection of fixes, mostly.

If space is that important and difficult to come by, ditch them. I doubt they'll really be missed.


But... one say, they might become rare...? :)

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 PostPost subject: Re: Microsoft service pack betas: To be or not to be?        Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:12 am 
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You could add a private BitTorrent tracker to the site and host all the not-so-commonly-used stuff on there. That would take quite some load off the FTP. I think file sharing is very effective: if many people want a file, many people have it; if nobody wants it, nobody has it. And if someone wants a very rare file he just has to ask here to have somebody reseed it.

Discuss, please.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Microsoft service pack betas: To be or not to be?        Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:13 am 
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motherboardlove wrote:
Thats why I host my servers at home...Then OVH cant take your servers hostage and charge you outragously high amounts :P :wink:


Then you can host all the SP:s and BA can delete them. If you got the bandwidth for it that is...

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 PostPost subject: Re: Microsoft service pack betas: To be or not to be?        Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:18 am 
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Tilka wrote:
You could add a private BitTorrent tracker to the site and host all the not-so-commonly-used stuff on there. That would take quite some load off the FTP. I think file sharing is very effective: if many people want a file, many people have it; if nobody wants it, nobody has it. And if someone wants a very rare file he just has to ask here to have somebody reseed it.


Well, Bittorrent is a bit of a hot potato at the moment. And it doesn't save any storage issues since BA would need to seed it anyway, if not then we would soon have a lot of unseeded and dead torrents... = more work for BA to keep track of it. Not to mention developing a working and secure tracker... BA has already considered using bittorrent and found it to be impractical and too unsafe for our needs, so bittorrent is out of the question.

Tilka wrote:
Discuss, please.


That's what we do here =).

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 PostPost subject: Re: Microsoft service pack betas: To be or not to be?        Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:21 am 
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Tilka wrote:
You could add a private BitTorrent tracker to the site and host all the not-so-commonly-used stuff on there. That would take quite some load off the FTP. I think file sharing is very effective: if many people want a file, many people have it; if nobody wants it, nobody has it. And if someone wants a very rare file he just has to ask here to have somebody reseed it.

Discuss, please.


Then nobody would seed... Once it hits 100%, MOST :wink: people just righticlick and hit "Remove" so thats not so good.
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motherboardlove wrote:
Thats why I host my servers at home...Then OVH cant take your servers hostage and charge you outragously high amounts :P :wink:


Then you can host all the SP:s and BA can delete them. If you got the bandwidth for it that is...

I would be happy to! :)

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 PostPost subject: Re: Microsoft service pack betas: To be or not to be?        Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:33 am 
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i see no value in keeping service pack betas, if someone needs a file from a service pack they can can ask around, someone usually has copy, its easy for people to say "keep them,keep them" but are they going to pay for the new hardrives?

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 PostPost subject: Re: Microsoft service pack betas: To be or not to be?        Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:52 am 
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betaluva wrote:
i see no value in keeping service pack betas, if someone needs a file from a service pack they can can ask around, someone usually has copy, its easy for people to say "keep them,keep them" but are they going to pay for the new hardrives?


Well, the SP1 of 7 is a SP,, so lets not put it on the server? Its a beta nonetheless. I will host the Service Packs on MY Server. Then, Im paying the electricity, and buying the new hard drives... everyones happy! (except my wallet and the banker :P)

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Last edited by motherboardlove on Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Microsoft service pack betas: To be or not to be?        Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:17 am 
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Web storage can be a royal pain when it comes down to those last few GB (my server is always at those, seeing as it only has 2x40GB), but I don't see the need to save beta SP files. (Glad to see that Motherboardlove offered to host them) =)
I do like seeing all the beta and abandonware files on the FTP because it brings both worlds together, I can get files to run on my i386 and then mess around with my 68k Mac, and even later, I might just want to upgrade to the latest Windows 7 build to make the IT guy drool when he sees it (He is still wondering where I got my hands on Office 2010, won't tell him).
I don't see any good use for a SP on the server, expcept to say that you have it... I don't think we need to use SP's to boost our egos... we have all those shiny Windows 7 builds for that...

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 PostPost subject: Re: Microsoft service pack betas: To be or not to be?        Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 3:17 am 
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We can't learn anything significant from pre-release SP's, they offer little to nothing in the way of new features, and really, who here is actually going to download them once the SP reaches RTM.

And duming Mac betas? How on earth are old pre-release Microsoft SP's that nobody will ever need more important than Mac betas?


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 PostPost subject: Re: Microsoft service pack betas: To be or not to be?        Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 3:33 am 
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J.Byrne wrote:
We can't learn anything significant from pre-release SP's, they offer little to nothing in the way of new features, and really, who here is actually going to download them once the SP reaches RTM.

And duming Mac betas? How on earth are old pre-release Microsoft SP's that nobody will ever need more important than Mac betas?


Yeah, but what if they become rare in the future? :( Then theyll be gone from public view, only for private eyes :( We should at least put them on a DVD, and when they are rare, re-upload them, and Ill also keep a copy on my server, and I encourage and hope other members will, too! :wink:

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 PostPost subject: Re: Microsoft service pack betas: To be or not to be?        Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 3:41 am 
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motherboardlove wrote:
J.Byrne wrote:
We can't learn anything significant from pre-release SP's, they offer little to nothing in the way of new features, and really, who here is actually going to download them once the SP reaches RTM.

And duming Mac betas? How on earth are old pre-release Microsoft SP's that nobody will ever need more important than Mac betas?


Yeah, but what if they become rare in the future? :( Then theyll be gone from public view, only for private eyes :( We should at least put them on a DVD, and when they are rare, re-upload them, and Ill also keep a copy on my server, and I encourage and hope other members will, too! :wink:


Do you feel up to the challenge of burning such a DVD?

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 PostPost subject: Re: Microsoft service pack betas: To be or not to be?        Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 3:42 am 
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I agree that sombody should keep them backed-up somewhere, but I don't see how they'l ever be rare.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Microsoft service pack betas: To be or not to be?        Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 3:54 am 
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pizzaboy192 wrote:
motherboardlove wrote:
J.Byrne wrote:
We can't learn anything significant from pre-release SP's, they offer little to nothing in the way of new features, and really, who here is actually going to download them once the SP reaches RTM.

And duming Mac betas? How on earth are old pre-release Microsoft SP's that nobody will ever need more important than Mac betas?


Yeah, but what if they become rare in the future? :( Then theyll be gone from public view, only for private eyes :( We should at least put them on a DVD, and when they are rare, re-upload them, and Ill also keep a copy on my server, and I encourage and hope other members will, too! :wink:


Do you feel up to the challenge of burning such a DVD?


Yes :)

J.Byrne wrote:
I agree that sombody should keep them backed-up somewhere, but I don't see how they'l ever be rare.


Remember one of the LOnghorns that got leaked in both 64bit and x86... People thought that it took too much space, and they didnt DL it. Now, people are looking all over for it. SEems like you guys didnt learn the lesson given right in front of you :\

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