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 PostPost subject: Is there any real benefit of a Metro app over a desktop app?        Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 10:57 pm 
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Other than the ability to cover the platform of Windows Phone , is there any real benefit of a Metro app over a desktop app?


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 PostPost subject: Re: Is there any real benefit of a Metro app over a desktop        Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 10:59 pm 
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To me, metro apps are slower than a normal desktop app most of the time. That's why I avoid them as much as possible.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Is there any real benefit of a Metro app over a desktop        Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 11:33 pm 
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answer is NO
if anything they are crippleware


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 PostPost subject: Re: Is there any real benefit of a Metro app over a desktop        Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 1:30 am 
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wasabilee wrote:
answer is NO
if anything they are crippleware

Wrong.

Please refer to previous posts about the subject. There are additional benefits that were not mentioned in those posts, such as resolution-independence.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Is there any real benefit of a Metro app over a desktop        Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 1:34 am 
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yes its so cool that when you disable UAC they won't work
I wonder why hmmm

or even better, its .net dependant


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 PostPost subject: Re: Is there any real benefit of a Metro app over a desktop        Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 1:37 am 
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wasabilee wrote:
yes its so cool that when you disable UAC they won't work
I wonder why hmmm

or even better, its .net dependant

What does that have to do with what was written?

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 PostPost subject: Re: Is there any real benefit of a Metro app over a desktop        Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 2:25 am 
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Besides the things previously mentioned, there are also input-independent controls and better APIs for devices such as cameras, scanners, Bluetooth, NFC, etc. vs. a technology like WPF.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Is there any real benefit of a Metro app over a desktop        Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 2:40 am 
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How exactly is one massive abstraction layer in any way better than communicating with the hardware natively? If anything, it actually makes it impossible to properly optimize the code as you have no way of refactoring a slow part to work faster. Now sure, there might be no big difference on an i5 or i7 but remember, not everyone has that kind of hardware. I have a Pentium Dual-core E5700 @ 3.0 GHz and anything Metro is noticably slower to me than anything native, which is why I'm no fan of Windows 10's Metroization of stuff like the taskbar clock.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Is there any real benefit of a Metro app over a desktop        Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 3:09 am 
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wasabilee wrote:
yes its so cool that when you disable UAC they won't work

What?! :| Modern apps still work without UAC.
Battler wrote:
How exactly is one massive abstraction layer in any way better than communicating with the hardware natively?

Maybe Microsoft could have made the implementation better However...
Goldfish64 wrote:
Besides the things previously mentioned, there are also input-independent controls and better APIs for devices such as cameras, scanners, Bluetooth, NFC, etc. vs. a technology like WPF.

Plus, the whole optimizing thing could go in the opposite way. A app that uses NFC could use extremely slow and buggy code when using their own API. With the Modern APIs, stuff like that is more integrated, and you have to use Microsoft's APIs, for better or for worse.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Is there any real benefit of a Metro app over a desktop        Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 3:40 am 
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Windows OS wrote:
Plus, the whole optimizing thing could go in the opposite way. A app that uses NFC could use extremely slow and buggy code when using their own API. With the Modern APIs, stuff like that is more integrated, and you have to use Microsoft's APIs, for better or for worse.

This is exactly the reason why Windows RT can't run ARM desktop apps. Since WinRT apps can't P/invoke or otherwise use external code, this eliminates code not being optimized for the platform.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Is there any real benefit of a Metro app over a desktop        Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:39 am 
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those are not apps, nor "modern"
its .net/xaml crap that needs garbage collector in order to work
scalable or not via wpf i don't care
its not native compiled code thus its slow and crapware


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 PostPost subject: Re: Is there any real benefit of a Metro app over a desktop        Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:57 am 
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To quote some facts from other topics...
Maza wrote:
Automatic application updating is a wonderful feature for desktop users. Users should not be required to manually install updates. AAU was, if memory serves, one of the benefits that Microsoft touted during the "Longhorn" era and with the ClickOnce technology. Not only do Metro applications automatically update, but they can be installed or uninstalled in as little as three steps, in a similar vein to ClickOnce. This is huge! If you don't like that Metro applications are fullscreen—I don't personally care either way—then the option to have them windowed in Windows 10 should delight you.

This is a benefit that I appreciate. Desktop applications may have their own updating installers too , but with some exceptions , their are always worse than the way Windows Store updates Metro apps.
Maza wrote:
Live Tiles are roughly equivalent to the Windows 98 Channel Bar or the Gadgets in Windows Vista/Windows 7. They all serve the same purpose and that is to serve the user with dynamically updated content.

This I would tend to disagree. It is only partially equivalent. Right now , there is no way I can quickly perform the function Gadgets would do(see the information I want just by hovering my mouse icon at the bottom-right of the display) without I having to open the start menu to see the same information with Live Tiles.
Yes , there may be taskbar options , but I feel that that option should have been there.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Is there any real benefit of a Metro app over a desktop        Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 8:47 am 
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wasabilee wrote:
those are not apps, nor "modern"
its .net/xaml crap that needs garbage collector in order to work
scalable or not via wpf i don't care
its not native compiled code thus its slow and crapware


Impressive how ill-informed you can be and still spout off.

Some modern apps are .NET, but you can also use C++, and many do. Almost all of the system apps in Windows 10 are C++, for example. Even where they're .NET, Store apps use .NET Native, which pre-compiles IL to native code.

Battler wrote:
How exactly is one massive abstraction layer in any way better than communicating with the hardware natively?


Firstly, compatibility. A common API for all hardware vendors to implement, a common API for all software vendors to consume. Secondly, security. Allows the OS to potentially filter any malicious requests far easier and with a smaller performance penalty than other methods.

I'm not actually sure what you say is entirely true anyway. I do believe that Metro apps can communicate direct with hardware anyway, at least to some degree, so as to enable companion apps for peripherals.


Regarding performance, I don't know what the last build you used is, but that's something that's steadily improved with each and every release, and 10240 was another jump forward in this regard (probably came from cutting some of the extra logging/debugging/tracking in the Insider builds).

Probably one of the more exciting things for Windows 10 is that legacy apps will be able to be repurposed and packaged into the store system. That looks like it'll be great news for users, a strong compromise that allows us to give some of the benefits (package management, some of the sandboxing) to legacy apps for a minimal cost.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Is there any real benefit of a Metro app over a desktop        Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 11:11 am 
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Battler wrote:
I have a Pentium Dual-core E5700 @ 3.0 GHz and anything Metro is noticably slower to me than anything native, which is why I'm no fan of Windows 10's Metroization of stuff like the taskbar clock.


This is making me reconsider running windows 10 on my 2008 Acer Aspire 5532 laptop (which was already low-powered when it came out).

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 PostPost subject: Re: Is there any real benefit of a Metro app over a desktop        Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 11:54 am 
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MrFreeman wrote:
Battler wrote:
I have a Pentium Dual-core E5700 @ 3.0 GHz and anything Metro is noticably slower to me than anything native, which is why I'm no fan of Windows 10's Metroization of stuff like the taskbar clock.


This is making me reconsider running windows 10 on my 2008 Acer Aspire 5532 laptop (which was already low-powered when it came out).

I've been using Windows 10 on a 2006 Dell Inspiron 6400(which is a Core 2 Duo T7200@2 GHz) , with GMA 950 graphics.
It isn't that much slower than Windows 8.1(and mostly in line , but note that Windows 8.1 does have McAfee and many more programs) , but yes , Start Menu is quite slow compared with Windows 8.1 , and things like clicking the time/date takes up to a second to open , which is slow compared with Windows 8.1.
With that in mind , I think you can decide whether you should go with Windows 10 on yours. Mind you , I installed very little programs on Windows 10 , and I did not install any external antivirus either.

Another problem with Metro app , and one that is likely to escalate with Windows 10 -
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This is a really bad issue , which was there since Windows 8.1 because most apps did not scale properly with Windows 8.1's ability to adjust screen size , and will only become greater in Windows 10 with all this flexibility...


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 PostPost subject: Re: Is there any real benefit of a Metro app over a desktop        Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 2:21 pm 
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x010 wrote:
Another problem with Metro app , and one that is likely to escalate with Windows 10 -
Image
This is a really bad issue , which was there since Windows 8.1 because most apps did not scale properly with Windows 8.1's ability to adjust screen size , and will only become greater in Windows 10 with all this flexibility...

That's just simply the app developers being too lazy to update their app to allow the 8.1/10 scaling. They should, eventually... I hope.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Is there any real benefit of a Metro app over a desktop        Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:54 pm 
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x010 wrote:
This I would tend to disagree. It is only partially equivalent. Right now , there is no way I can quickly perform the function Gadgets would do(see the information I want just by hovering my mouse icon at the bottom-right of the display) without I having to open the start menu to see the same information with Live Tiles.

What I meant was that they are functionally equivalent in terms of the information they provide. I do agree, however, that there could be a better way of presenting the information instead of being required to open the Start menu; "peripheral awareness" (e.g., Windows Sidebar) would be better suited for this information. Then again, perhaps the new notification center and notifications will largely negate the need to even open the Start menu to view Live Tiles.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Is there any real benefit of a Metro app over a desktop        Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2015 9:43 pm 
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Almost all of the system apps in Windows 10 are C++, for example.

gee I wonder why


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 PostPost subject: Re: Is there any real benefit of a Metro app over a desktop        Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 1:50 am 
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modern apps are for fat fingers. You don't always have a stylus or mouse on a tablet.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Is there any real benefit of a Metro app over a desktop        Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 3:33 am 
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can't see anything modern there
its like calling windows Neptune modern OS


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 PostPost subject: Re: Is there any real benefit of a Metro app over a desktop        Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 4:00 am 
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os2fan2 wrote:
modern apps are for fat fingers. You don't always have a stylus or mouse on a tablet.

Metro applications are designed to be input-agnostic. The Metro interface, particularly how it functions in Windows 8.1 Update and Windows 10, includes optimizations for non-touch based forms of input. For example, in Windows 10, Live Tiles for the Start menu are smaller in size when compared with the Start screen in tablet mode.

Actually, one can see the very benefits of Metro's design since, as you say, one may not always have a stylus or mouse for a tablet; Metro applications can be used only with touch if a user prefers or if an alternate form of input is unavailable. In contrast, traditional desktop applications are typically not designed for any form of input other than a mouse cursor and/or keyboard.

wasabilee wrote:
can't see anything modern there
its like calling windows Neptune modern OS

Metro may share design similarities with "Neptune," but they are not the same.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Is there any real benefit of a Metro app over a desktop        Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 4:34 am 
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thats a lie
when that chick Larson Green presented alpha of win7 she used touch screen on ordinary ms paint
bragging how win7 improved on multitouch wel gee wizz win7 doesn't have "metro"

metro is simply lazy way of doing "OS" for touch


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 PostPost subject: Re: Is there any real benefit of a Metro app over a desktop        Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 5:37 am 
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wasabilee wrote:
thats a lie
when that chick Larson Green presented alpha of win7 she used touch screen on ordinary ms paint
bragging how win7 improved on multitouch wel gee wizz win7 doesn't have "metro"

metro is simply lazy way of doing "OS" for touch

Why would I lie? Note that I said, and I must emphasize, that "traditional desktop applications are typically not designed for any form of input other than a mouse cursor and/or keyboard."

I am well aware of the Windows 7 touch functionality, but how many traditional applications are designed with touch in mind? How many applications are there that take advantage of the Windows 7 touch functionality? Not many, especially when compared with those that are not and do not.

They also do not provide the advantages that Metro applications do.

wasabilee wrote:
metro is simply lazy way of doing "OS" for touch

It is not a touch-only interface.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Is there any real benefit of a Metro app over a desktop        Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 7:59 am 
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Maza wrote:
wasabilee wrote:
thats a lie
when that chick Larson Green presented alpha of win7 she used touch screen on ordinary ms paint
bragging how win7 improved on multitouch wel gee wizz win7 doesn't have "metro"

metro is simply lazy way of doing "OS" for touch

Why would I lie? Note that I said, and I must emphasize, that "traditional desktop applications are typically not designed for any form of input other than a mouse cursor and/or keyboard."

I am well aware of the Windows 7 touch functionality, but how many traditional applications are designed with touch in mind? How many applications are there that take advantage of the Windows 7 touch functionality? Not many, especially when compared with those that are not and do not.

They also do not provide the advantages that Metro applications do.

wasabilee wrote:
metro is simply lazy way of doing "OS" for touch

It is not a touch-only interface.

Besides , non-metro apps are (mostly)pretty difficult to use on non-stylus Windows tablets.
The best example of this would be File Explorer itself. Wonder why Microsoft did not introduce a metroized version of File Explorer for Windows 8x?

Perhaps , the biggest advantage of Metro is that it can be used on more than one form factor.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Is there any real benefit of a Metro app over a desktop        Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:19 am 
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1. disabling UAC is a terrible idea
2. Roslyn and .NET Native
3. Windows 7 supports touch, but nobody knew about it/cared. And the touch support was actually good. I still prefer TabTip from 7. Metro screams at developers "create working interfaces, god damn it!". Skype started supporting touch on desktop this year.
4. Metro is not a way of doing "OS", but a shell layer.
5. (personal opinion) metro will be as popular as WPF. WinU, just like WinRT, will not succeed.
6. The apps do feel slower. Waiting 4 seconds on a Sandy Bridge with SSD for a weather tile to load is ridiculous.
7. I liked the original Windows 8 design photos, like Zune. After the release I thought that they should have developed it as an internal project for 3 next years and release it then. Instead, they released something that was as ready as Activity Centers. But waiting longer to polish it would inevitably lead to development hell and second longhorn, something vaporous, awaited but scrapped eventually.

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