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 PostPost subject: MS-DOS utilities for imaging floppy disks...        Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 7:01 am 
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As someone who is interested in preservation of old software, I just thought I'd ask a question here ... for the true software-preservation gurus! ;)

I have a load of old PC software to upload to the FTP server, but one of the major issues that I'm currently running into lately is that much of it consists of software that was released on 5.25 inch floppy disks, which places a great barrier to properly imaging it since in nearly all cases the only USB drives available are for 3.5 inch disks only.

So for this, I have provided a solution, which is basically to assemble a machine for imaging disks, which would have both, a 5.25 inch floppy disk drive (1.2 MB) and a 3.5 inch floppy disk drive (1.44 MB). That way, I could first image the disks themselves, and then copy them onto another disk so that I would be able to copy them onto a more modern PC and upload them from there.

The issue here is, though, that I am in search of a utility for MS-DOS that can successfully image floppy disks. I know that there are quite a few out there, but perhaps what I am specifically looking for is one that doesn't modify the disk itself by modifying the boot sector or anything else like that, since not only do I want to preserve the original floppy disks themselves, but I also want to provide proper dumps of each and every one.

From seeing this place before, I've seen several people here who are experts on media preservation and dumping disk images, as well as negotiating with ancient technology and software (mrpijey, marcoguy, Darkstar, Battler, and probably several others), and I was wondering whether one of them has such an MS-DOS utility that they could possibly recommend for me to use, one that can conveniently and easily dump all of the disks that I would like to provide for the FTP server here.

That said, if you could help me, it would all be paid back with the releases mentioned above. :)

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 PostPost subject: Re: MS-DOS utilities for imaging floppy disks...        Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 7:40 am 
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The best disk imaging utility for non-copy protected disks under DOS is Dave Dunfield's ImageDisk: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm

It can even read and restore a number of non IBM formats.


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 PostPost subject: Re: MS-DOS utilities for imaging floppy disks...        Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 10:11 am 
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ImageDisk is good if you want to dump from MS-DOS. But if you want to preserve all kinds of floppies, regardless of what copy protection, file system etc it has then I would suggest a KryoFlux unit. It's not for MS-DOS of course, but it's a much better preserver and works with all floppies. A couple of members here (including me) has one and we put up KF images on the FTP as well. With a KF you can build a small system that dumps 3.5'', 5.25'', 3.25'' and even 8'' floppies (if you got the drives).

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 PostPost subject: Re: MS-DOS utilities for imaging floppy disks...        Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 9:08 pm 
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mrpijey wrote:
ImageDisk is good if you want to dump from MS-DOS. But if you want to preserve all kinds of floppies, regardless of what copy protection, file system etc it has then I would suggest a KryoFlux unit. It's not for MS-DOS of course, but it's a much better preserver and works with all floppies. A couple of members here (including me) has one and we put up KF images on the FTP as well. With a KF you can build a small system that dumps 3.5'', 5.25'', 3.25'' and even 8'' floppies (if you got the drives).
Well, does ImageDisk modify the original disk itself, or does it also leave the original floppy disks intact?

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 PostPost subject: Re: MS-DOS utilities for imaging floppy disks...        Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2015 11:23 pm 
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No it doesn't modify anything, any floppy imager that modifies the original should be thrown away as it's destructive and just plain wrong. All they do is read the media and then save it in an appropriate format.

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 PostPost subject: Re: MS-DOS utilities for imaging floppy disks...        Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2015 2:40 am 
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mrpijey wrote:
No it doesn't modify anything, any floppy imager that modifies the original should be thrown away as it's destructive and just plain wrong. All they do is read the media and then save it in an appropriate format.
Thanks, I'll download it later. Your help was really appreciated. :)

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 PostPost subject: Re: MS-DOS utilities for imaging floppy disks...        Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 2:03 pm 
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Appart from a kryoflux unit, i suggest a Supercard pro, it seems it has better resolution for "scanning" the magnetic surface of the disk

also about the SCP author, it's more "open" to comments and suggestions in the support forum

for example in the Kryoflux forum, some user asked about possible update features and fixes in new versions of KF software and the answer was "it's secret, we are not going to publish this information" or somethink like that

so when you buy a KF you know what you are getting...


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 PostPost subject: Re: MS-DOS utilities for imaging floppy disks...        Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 4:23 pm 
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anormal wrote:
Appart from a kryoflux unit, i suggest a Supercard pro, it seems it has better resolution for "scanning" the magnetic surface of the disk

also about the SCP author, it's more "open" to comments and suggestions in the support forum

for example in the Kryoflux forum, some user asked about possible update features and fixes in new versions of KF software and the answer was "it's secret, we are not going to publish this information" or somethink like that

so when you buy a KF you know what you are getting...


I have a KF board and it works good. I did some releases to BA, and despite some initial mistakes during the learning curve, now is pretty easy to dump an image ( I have dumped IBM PC, Atari and C64/128 images ).

But yes, there are "some" limitations on the KF side as they think keeping "secrets" are good. Well, their business, their decision. We need to accept or not.
I would say the guy who received the answers above is "lucky". For example, I tried to open an account on their forum, and the approval is "manual". I'm still waiting for an approval ( for months...). So, until now I can't put a question in the forum.

Thank you for sharing the SuperCard Pro info. I will give it a try. Just ordered on board and will run some tests and compare the results.

+BzzBr

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 PostPost subject: Re: MS-DOS utilities for imaging floppy disks...        Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 4:37 pm 
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KF / Softpres people, has dumped to ipf (usable in emulators) nearly all games produced for Amiga,
look the PC releases.

I know Amiga people hates pc ;) haha, but this revenge it's too brutal hahaha

i didn't know i was lucky for having an account in kf forums, that's crazy. You spent $$$ in a product and the support you have is "hey you can dump floppies in raw format", that is. I've asked things in the forum about the best way to dump, hint's for this, etc... I felt they don't have too much time to answer things or give "for my point of view" proper support.

But... i am using it and plan to dump all my originals with both KF and SCP


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 PostPost subject: Re: MS-DOS utilities for imaging floppy disks...        Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 5:20 pm 
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anormal wrote:
KF / Softpres people, has dumped to ipf (usable in emulators) nearly all games produced for Amiga,
look the PC releases.

I know Amiga people hates pc ;) haha, but this revenge it's too brutal hahaha

i didn't know i was lucky for having an account in kf forums, that's crazy. You spent $$$ in a product and the support you have is "hey you can dump floppies in raw format", that is. I've asked things in the forum about the best way to dump, hint's for this, etc... I felt they don't have too much time to answer things or give "for my point of view" proper support.

But... i am using it and plan to dump all my originals with both KF and SCP


Yes, they have dumped a lot of disks to ipf. The issue : As far I know, the dumps are not available for public. Or please :) "prove I'm wrong" and send me a link for their releases :D :D :D

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 PostPost subject: Re: MS-DOS utilities for imaging floppy disks...        Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 5:40 pm 
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You are right, they "say" (i've heard of many users that sent them dumps and haven't received nothing in months)
that they send to you the ipf i you send them the dump first...

They only ipfs you can get are throught torrents, from CAPSDI people, and other pages (maybe tosec/nointro), but not from them.
I understand them, they don't want legal problems...

For me, the way to IBM PC true floppy emulation is through correct emulation timings, correct drive controller emulation, and raw/prepared dumps (as PCE does) of originial and unmodified floppies, with KF, SCP or similar hardwares.

In the future i don't know, but now we must dump original floppies as much as possible, magnetic surfaces are degrading as i am typing this :D


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 PostPost subject: Re: MS-DOS utilities for imaging floppy disks...        Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:22 pm 
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They say they will send you the IPFs... I have not received any for years. So I call that bull. 99% of all their dumps are Amiga stuff as they don't care much about PC at all, which is why I stopped sending them any PC stuff. I still think the KF is a good piece of hardware, especially since you now can also write the stream files back onto a floppy. And there's no issues converting the streams to a usable format, which means the data is properly preserved. I am not familiar much with the SCP hardware, but if it's equal to KF then I welcome saving their "stream" data on BA as well. As long as it's a good preservation.

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 PostPost subject: Re: MS-DOS utilities for imaging floppy disks...        Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 7:58 pm 
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anormal wrote:
I understand them, they don't want legal problems...


Sorry to change a little bit the subject here, but about the "legal stuff". Yes, I understand IPF releases and .img releases can be a problem, as they are "copies" of the disk data.
Now, how do you see ".raw" releases ? I was thinking about this last week. I'm not a lawyer specialized in IP or Copyright, but the way I see the ".raw" files, there is no violation to distribute them at all.

Let me explain. You cannot "copy" a floppy or a Audio CD or even a single music and distribute it. But you can take a "picture" of a diskette, CD ROM or even the "music file" and distribute the picture. You just took a picture and the picture it is yours. Now, ".raw" files aren't a kind of "strong deeper super zoom picture" of the magnetic fields stored on the disks ?

If we have a camera that can take pictures of magnetic fields, if we zoom it over a disk and see the magnetic fields, would that picture a copyright violation? KF ".raw" files does not replicate the data (bits & bytes) from the disks. It just represents the magnetic flux, or a "picture" of the magnetic fields.

Sounds Crazy ? Anyone with more legal experience here on the IP side would like to join the discussion ?

+BzzBR

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 PostPost subject: Re: MS-DOS utilities for imaging floppy disks...        Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 8:24 pm 
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Afaik, Scp has higher sampling resolution than KF, so i'll send scp dumps also to BA.

I am not a lawyer but i think that with low level magnetic stream is just another encoding from copyrighted work, it's like a zip or a rar or a base64 encode but still the data ;)


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 PostPost subject: Re: MS-DOS utilities for imaging floppy disks...        Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:42 am 
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Im use to make a image Copy II PC and Snachit for make an exact image , and the other soft is Teledisk , im use it in my 386 DX 40mhz and make image with all the protections , im use too EPLCOPY 4.21 , Teledisk TD0 image , Eplcopy .EPL image and Copy II PC .CP2 Image , im the 90s im make an image of Booter Games and all with 100% with the protections , im send lots of this soft to the dead webpage retrograde station ,and I have several that are not in internet , sorry , poor english ... regards


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 PostPost subject: Re: MS-DOS utilities for imaging floppy disks...        Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 1:37 pm 
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anormal , no problem , im share some stuff , ( the complete stuff is several gb ) i think im make a list


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 PostPost subject: Re: MS-DOS utilities for imaging floppy disks...        Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 2:23 pm 
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pd: and from disk to disk im use CopyWrite , slow , but efective


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