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 PostPost subject: Fastest Single Threaded Running of 68k Code?        Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 4:49 am 
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I am currently investigating a way to run an old copy of Bryce 1.0 and use it to render some scenes in ultra high resolutions. However, as it figures, Bryce 1.0 is an old MacOS application which has roots in the 68k architecture. Therefore, there is no easy way to take this program and render scenes efficiently as you would on a modern system.

What exactly would be the fastest method for actually running Bryce 1.0 renders? Undoubtedly original hardware would be very slow whether it is 68k or PPC with ZIF upgrade cards, and the current method of using Basilisk II is a bit crashy for my tastes. Would classic mode on one of those 2.7ghz G5s be faster by chance?

There's also a possibility that the version I have (1.0.1) also was a fat binary, so it may have PPC code in there as well. I'd also use a newer version of Bryce, but I am just not getting the same "results" with newer versions as they seemed to have changed much with the rendering.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Fastest Single Threaded Running of 68k Code?        Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:16 am 
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If it's a fat binary, you could possibly use pearpc to emulate os9, and run it that way. I haven't fooled around with such things in ages, so I have no idea if it would be an ideal solution. I wonder if later versions of Bryce would work? I suspect that you're going for a specific look to the final renders only available in the particular version you're trying to get running. Time to investigate potential solutions for you. I'm interested in this sort of thing as well :)

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 PostPost subject: Re: Fastest Single Threaded Running of 68k Code?        Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:24 am 
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jimmsta wrote:
If it's a fat binary, you could possibly use pearpc to emulate os9, and run it that way. I haven't fooled around with such things in ages, so I have no idea if it would be an ideal solution.

Uhh, you CANNOT use PearPC to run OS 9, since PearPC is designed only to run OS X. It's just a PowerPC emulator that's designed to directly boot OS X, bypassing the need for any ROM files. I'm not so sure if OS X under PearPC could run Classic. I haven't tried it yet.
You can use the PowerPC Mac emu SheepShaver to run OS 7.5.2 to OS 9.0.4.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Fastest Single Threaded Running of 68k Code?        Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:28 am 
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Yes, I have Sheepshaver as well, but it is even slower and crashes more often than Basilisk. Emulating PPC code is probably more intensive than 68k.

Edit: I wonder if I could use this as an API layer and architecture emulator with less overhead and crashing:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executor_%28software%29

Then, I could take something like a G3258 and clock the thing to some ridiculous speed. Other than having the source code and making modifications myself, I'm not sure of another method.

Edit again:

Nevermind, Executor does not support FPU emulation (which is needed to make Bryce work.)


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 PostPost subject: Re: Fastest Single Threaded Running of 68k Code?        Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 1:36 am 
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Windows OS wrote:
jimmsta wrote:
If it's a fat binary, you could possibly use pearpc to emulate os9, and run it that way. I haven't fooled around with such things in ages, so I have no idea if it would be an ideal solution.

Uhh, you CANNOT use PearPC to run OS 9, since PearPC is designed only to run OS X. It's just a PowerPC emulator that's designed to directly boot OS X, bypassing the need for any ROM files. I'm not so sure if OS X under PearPC could run Classic. I haven't tried it yet.
You can use the PowerPC Mac emu SheepShaver to run OS 7.5.2 to OS 9.0.4.


As I said, it's been ages since I tried anything in this realm. SheepShaver is what I meant. I suspect that classic mode might work, if it's a fat binary. If not, then it's going to be a pain because you have to emulate 68k code on top of ppc on top of x86... Who knows if it'll work!

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 PostPost subject: Re: Fastest Single Threaded Running of 68k Code?        Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:01 am 
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Use a Power Mac G5 with 2.5GHz PowerPC 970 CPU, run that application in Classic.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Fastest Single Threaded Running of 68k Code?        Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:03 am 
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Some of the Basilisk versions have a JIT, which should be plenty fast.

I should try it one of these days, but I've found that the more features they seem to enable on Basilisk II the more and more unstable it becomes. Also I've found that the Quadra 800, 68040, no FPU and MacOS 8.1 seems to run the best, but that's my experience.

Also you may find the folks over @ emuaculation know more.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Fastest Single Threaded Running of 68k Code?        Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 3:35 am 
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Basilisk II and SheepShaver just aren't up to snuff really; they're pretty dated code; and need to be refactored and reframed.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Fastest Single Threaded Running of 68k Code?        Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 6:31 am 
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louisw3 wrote:
Some of the Basilisk versions have a JIT, which should be plenty fast.

I should try it one of these days, but I've found that the more features they seem to enable on Basilisk II the more and more unstable it becomes. Also I've found that the Quadra 800, 68040, no FPU and MacOS 8.1 seems to run the best, but that's my experience.

Also you may find the folks over @ emuaculation know more.


I had no idea that this resource existed. For instance, regarding Windows-based Basilisk II builds: http://www.emaculation.com/forum/viewto ... f=6&t=5282

There's a lot of different builds in existence, for different purposes. If anything, building a special version for this particular task would probably be ideal - limit the functionality to run just Bryce 1.x, cut out all the stuff you don't need, and keep the timing ratios in place (albeit multiplied), you should be good. I don't know how to go about doing any of this, mind you, but it's a potential avenue to a solution.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Fastest Single Threaded Running of 68k Code?        Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 10:51 pm 
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Thanks for the responses.

Yeah, I was figuring the 2.5Ghz PPC G5 classic mode would be a decent suggestion as I think those 2.5s were the last to be able to run OSX with classic mode. There are 2.7s out there as well, but I've heard nothing to that sort.

However, upon all I have dug up, the absolute fastest probably is indeed Basilisk II. It's slower than I would want due to the emulation, but I'm assuming the emulated instructions are just repetitive FPU commands.

The real question comes down to what is faster - 2.5ghz PPC G5 with PPC code, or 4.2ish i7 6700k with emulated JIT x68 FPU code from an ancient emulator.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Fastest Single Threaded Running of 68k Code?        Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 4:02 pm 
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Omicron wrote:
Thanks for the responses.

Yeah, I was figuring the 2.5Ghz PPC G5 classic mode would be a decent suggestion as I think those 2.5s were the last to be able to run OSX with classic mode. There are 2.7s out there as well, but I've heard nothing to that sort.

However, upon all I have dug up, the absolute fastest probably is indeed Basilisk II. It's slower than I would want due to the emulation, but I'm assuming the emulated instructions are just repetitive FPU commands.

The real question comes down to what is faster - 2.5ghz PPC G5 with PPC code, or 4.2ish i7 6700k with emulated JIT x68 FPU code from an ancient emulator.

Ahh. Now THAT would be a fun question to answer!!!
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I used to have a duel 2.5 GHz Power Mac G5 and I loved the living crap out of it, until the infamous liquid cooler issue killed it. So, if the G5 you have is a duel, check to make sure it isn't liquid cooled.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Fastest Single Threaded Running of 68k Code?        Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:56 pm 
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I saw a post about a dual 2.5GHz Power Mac G5 running OS 9.2.2 classic... natively! I actually thought Apple stopped supporting OS 9 booting on their rigs after 2002 as is the case with Powerbooks. Flashing FW800 back to FW400 on some 2003 models reportedly bypasses the problem, granted you have a universal installer disc, or install it to a disk from another machine.

Blue box (Classic) is not SMP aware, nor are Basillisk II or SheepShaver, and M68K in common practice comes before XGrid or Beowulf ever was a term, so I can't honestly see why having another socket would help speed things up, let alone the rare dual core / dual socket variant of the PM G5 (Does it run Tiger?). I can't track down the post, but it'd be curious if the M68K emulator built-in to classic (Natively that is) was ever capable of multithreading given the memory model.

With any single threaded applications or single threaded emulator running any applications (Either level of threading) computations per cycle and the frequency at which the CPU runs is the only effective way to squeeze more power out of the application. Old PC game heads have battled over this for the last two or so decades before multicore was a thing, let alone affordable dual/quad socket workstations. I have roots in Sun gear, and the same thing happened in the UNIX camps.. for example Ross HyperSPARC 200MHz upgrades (Same lineage as M68K tech)

The last thing I'm thinking of is the stability of running an application multitudes faster than it was designed for. Nowadays this is generally not a problem, but in those days many assumptions were made about what the results would be.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Fastest Single Threaded Running of 68k Code?        Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 3:57 am 
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sparcdr wrote:
I saw a post about a dual 2.5GHz Power Mac G5 running OS 9.2.2 classic... natively! I actually thought Apple stopped supporting OS 9 booting on their rigs after 2002 as is the case with Powerbooks. Flashing FW800 back to FW400 on some 2003 models reportedly bypasses the problem, granted you have a universal installer disc, or install it to a disk from another machine.

...what? Do you mean within the Classic Environment or actually booting the operating system? If it's the latter, then that's fracking AWESOME!!! I mean, my 800 MHz Mid 2003 eMac runs Mac OS 9 BEAUTIFULLY. Just think how fast it would run on a G5!!!
sparcdr wrote:
...let alone the rare dual core / dual socket variant of the PM G5 (Does it run Tiger?).

Yes, it can run Tiger. As you can see in my above post, I had a Duel 2.5 GHz Power Mac G5. Back when I still had it, I once installed Tiger on it just so I could play around with the Classic Environment.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Fastest Single Threaded Running of 68k Code?        Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 11:36 pm 
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Okay, I was mistaken based on the post written, it is classic emulation. But the seller claims it's the fastest machine produced capable of running classic.

There's the link if you're interested:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/PowerMac-G5-QUAD-STRONGEST-PPC-EVER-MADE-16GB-10-4-0S-9-CLASSIC-10-5-7300GT-/162134762014?hash=item25bffc221e:g:HCoAAOSw0kNXhasr

The image:
Image

A related newsgroup suggests which models are the end of the line: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/macos9/-V8GQufvbfo which indicates the Dual G4 Quicksilver 1GHz and PowerMac G4 (FW400 MDD) is the last capable of booting OS 9 natively. (FW800 enforcement gimped classic boot)

I combed through EveryMac and list the last models below:
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g4/specs/powermac_g4_1.0_dp_mdd.html (August 2002; Dual CPU; PowerMac G4)
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/imac/specs/imac_800_17_fp.html (July 2002; Single CPU; iMac G4)
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powerbook_g4/specs/powerbook_g4_1.0.html (November 2002; Single CPU; PowerBook G4 Ti)
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/ibook/specs/ibook_900.html (April 2003; Single CPU; iBook G4)

iBook G4 900MHz -
1GB RAM Maximum
32MB ATI Mobility Radeon 7500 (2x AGP)
40GB HDD
1024x768 Resolution (Internal)

PowerBook G4 1.0GHz Ti -
640MB RAM Maximum
64MB ATI Mobility Radeon 9000 (4x AGP)
60GB HDD
1280x854 Resolution (Internal)

iMac G4 800MHz 17" -
1GB RAM Maximum
32MB NVIDIA GeForce 4 MX (2x AGP)
80GB HDD (Supports ATA-6)
1440x900 Resolution (Internal)

PowerMac G4 1.0 (Mirrored Drive) -
2GB RAM Maximum
64MB ATI Radeon 9000 Pro (4x AGP) or 128MB NVIDIA GeForce4 Ti (4x AGP)
80GB HDD (Supports ATA-6)
1920x1200 Resolutioon (External)

The last model to support OS 9 shipped was apparently the iBook G4 900MHz listed above. The PowerMac is confirmed by Classilla's build guide though I'm skeptical because EveryMac indicates even the 1.42GHz dual G4 models only supported the classic environment. https://code.google.com/archive/p/classilla/wikis/HowToBuild.wiki

Quote:
FW400 MDD Power Mac with dual Sonnet 1.8GHz G4 7447A processors


All G5 era machines came with FW800 (June 2003) whereas OS 9 was effectively terminated by Apple on all new machines as of early 2003 such as my PowerBook G4 Ti 667MHz laptop. No Mac Mini or PowerMac G5 was ever made that was capable of booting OS 9 natively.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Fastest Single Threaded Running of 68k Code?        Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 7:39 am 
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I don't know if Bryce rendering uses the FPU at all, but if you're running on PowerPC (native or in Classic), installing PowerFPU might speed it up.
Also there is an app called NativeChecker which will tell you if an app is 68k or PPC native.

I'll try Bryce on my G5 2.0DC and see how it runs


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 PostPost subject: Re: Fastest Single Threaded Running of 68k Code        Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2016 7:33 am 
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I tried Bryce 1.0.1, it is PPC-native (and does require an FPU when running on 68k)

Rendering the included XanadesFjord scene at 520x354 took under 30 seconds on my G5 2.0DC.
Haha and after bumping up the app's RAM allocation (a lot), I did a 1680x1050 render of the same scene in 3 and a half minutes.

Bryce seems to run great under Classic and a G5 would be a great machine for it.


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