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 PostPost subject: Re: Apple running Windows NT 3.51 for PPC?        Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 3:34 am 
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fuccbol is correct. Power Macs have OpenFirmware, and NT PPC expects some sort of BIOS.

There are bootloaders (such as yaboot for NewWorld and BootX for OldWorld (I think)) that allow Power Macs to run various versions of Linux (NewWorld Power Macs, if they're fast enough, can even run current versions of some distributions).

Maybe with some sort of virualization software on PPC Linux, one could run NT PPC natively therein (much as Windows runs natively within Parallels or VMWare Fusion on Intel versions of Mac OS X).

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 PostPost subject: Re: Apple running Windows NT 3.51 for PPC?        Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:12 am 
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cc333 wrote:
[censored] is correct. Power Macs have OpenFirmware, and NT PPC expects some sort of BIOS.

No. NT expects ARC firmware. And Open Firmware can be made ARC compatible - Win NT will install on a Motorola Powerstack with Open Firmware.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Apple running Windows NT 3.51 for PPC?        Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:35 am 
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Forget about it. However you can try a emulator or Virtual machine.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Apple running Windows NT 3.51 for PPC?        Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2014 5:27 pm 
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GL1zdA wrote:
No. NT expects ARC firmware. And Open Firmware can be made ARC compatible - Win NT will install on a Motorola Powerstack with Open Firmware.


Did you already do it? If you have such a machine, are you able to dump the ROM? :)

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 PostPost subject: Re: Apple running Windows NT 3.51 for PPC?        Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:27 am 
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SoftWitch wrote:
GL1zdA wrote:
No. NT expects ARC firmware. And Open Firmware can be made ARC compatible - Win NT will install on a Motorola Powerstack with Open Firmware.


Did you already do it? If you have such a machine, are you able to dump the ROM? :)

Unfortunately I don't have a Motorola Powerstack, but I've tried it on an IBM RS/6000 43P-140 (which is a PReP machine with OpenFirmware) years ago and it executed but failed to boot. I doubt the VENEER.EXE program will work on anything else than a Powerstack, but you can try to run the CD in an OpenFirmware PowerMac and see what happens.

You can read more about it here:
Re: orphaned NT4 machines

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 PostPost subject: Re: Apple running Windows NT 3.51 for PPC?        Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:39 pm 
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Thanks for the info. I don't have a PowerMac anymore. :(

There still are many hardware differences, like Macs using ADB/USB for HID devices, while the Apple-IBM-Motorola (AIM) era platforms have a PS/2-like interface, if I remember correctly. The only Apple PowerPC machine that wasn't a Mac was running IBM's AIX Unix derivate. (When going away from PCs I was looking for an graphics workstation alternative and did some reading, stumbling across these other platforms.)

Edit: Is VENEER.EXE included in Windows NT?

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 PostPost subject: Re: Apple running Windows NT 3.51 for PPC?        Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 4:08 pm 
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SoftWitch wrote:
Thanks for the info. I don't have a PowerMac anymore. :(

There still are many hardware differences, like Macs using ADB/USB for HID devices, while the Apple-IBM-Motorola (AIM) era platforms have a PS/2-like interface, if I remember correctly. The only Apple PowerPC machine that wasn't a Mac was running IBM's AIX Unix derivate. (When going away from PCs I was looking for an graphics workstation alternative and did some reading, stumbling across these other platforms.)

Edit: Is VENEER.EXE included in Windows NT?

Yes, at least in NT 4.0 in the PPC folder.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Apple running Windows NT 3.51 for PPC?        Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2014 5:36 pm 
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GL1zdA wrote:
SoftWitch wrote:
GL1zdA wrote:
No. NT expects ARC firmware. And Open Firmware can be made ARC compatible - Win NT will install on a Motorola Powerstack with Open Firmware.


Did you already do it? If you have such a machine, are you able to dump the ROM? :)

Unfortunately I don't have a Motorola Powerstack, but I've tried it on an IBM RS/6000 43P-140 (which is a PReP machine with OpenFirmware) years ago and it executed but failed to boot. I doubt the VENEER.EXE program will work on anything else than a Powerstack, but you can try to run the CD in an OpenFirmware PowerMac and see what happens.

You can read more about it here:
Re: orphaned NT4 machines


Is well know that this machine requires a set of updated HAL (ARC) disks to run Windows NT. Maybe you would like to try again with the ones found in http://web.archive.org/web/200412120640 ... tents.html. Files are easy to find via google as there are many mirrors for that content. You can also find on those archives firmware updates for your very specific RS6000 machine model.

--------

PPC Machines known to work via testing with WinNT PPC.

Motorola PowerStack: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpAOCJFqImM

A nice thing about this system is that it can use any PCI VGA adapter, since HAL for this machine model comes with a very handy x86 BIOS emulation support to initialize the adapter using the built in VGA ROM (The same one that comes with WinXP/2003 64bit versions. You can find it in the NT4 leaked sources, in the powerstack hal directory).

In the video you can see the guy using a standard S3 cheapo VGA card. Almost all other RISC machines supporting WinNT had only a few subset of supported graphic adapters built in firmware, and using any other video card could result in unbootable systems, like Acer PICA, or the MIPS magnum, that can't boot windows NT without their bundled video adapters.

Thinkpad 860 Laptop: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bxJIA8hscI

Some system models can boot directly from the NT CD, other system models require a new set of HAL (ARC) bootdisks. Almost all the required info to install the system can be found in this page:

http://mcbx.netne.net/computers/portabl ... /index.htm (Warning: some times the page doesn't load, you need wait days to find it working)


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 PostPost subject: Re: Apple running Windows NT 3.51 for PPC?        Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:55 am 
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Hyoenmadan86 wrote:
Is well know that this machine requires a set of updated HAL (ARC) disks to run Windows NT. Maybe you would like to try again with the ones found in http://web.archive.org/web/200412120640 ... tents.html. Files are easy to find via google as there are many mirrors for that content. You can also find on those archives firmware updates for your very specific RS6000 machine model.


There were 2 43Ps: the 7248-43P and 7043-43P. The first ones are the Power Series 830/850 computers and should run NT. The second ones are the OpenFirmware machines and their hardware is different from the older Power Series. I've tried the ARC boot disks (version 1.51) years ago (in 2009) but they didn't work. The floppy was OK, because I've installed NT on a 7024-E30 with it. There was at least one other person that I asked to do it on a 7043-43P and it didn't work. Since then I haven't tried to ask other people to do it to avoid [censored] them off ;)
RS/6000 7043-140 @ comp.sys.ibm.ps2.hardware

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 PostPost subject: Re: Apple running Windows NT 3.51 for PPC?        Posted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:37 pm 
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Hyoenmadan86 wrote:
GL1zdA wrote:
SoftWitch wrote:
GL1zdA wrote:
No. NT expects ARC firmware. And Open Firmware can be made ARC compatible - Win NT will install on a Motorola Powerstack with Open Firmware.


Did you already do it? If you have such a machine, are you able to dump the ROM? :)

Unfortunately I don't have a Motorola Powerstack, but I've tried it on an IBM RS/6000 43P-140 (which is a PReP machine with OpenFirmware) years ago and it executed but failed to boot. I doubt the VENEER.EXE program will work on anything else than a Powerstack, but you can try to run the CD in an OpenFirmware PowerMac and see what happens.

You can read more about it here:
Re: orphaned NT4 machines


Is well know that this machine requires a set of updated HAL (ARC) disks to run Windows NT. Maybe you would like to try again with the ones found in http://web.archive.org/web/200412120640 ... tents.html. Files are easy to find via google as there are many mirrors for that content. You can also find on those archives firmware updates for your very specific RS6000 machine model.

--------

PPC Machines known to work via testing with WinNT PPC.

Motorola PowerStack: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpAOCJFqImM

A nice thing about this system is that it can use any PCI VGA adapter, since HAL for this machine model comes with a very handy x86 BIOS emulation support to initialize the adapter using the built in VGA ROM (The same one that comes with WinXP/2003 64bit versions. You can find it in the NT4 leaked sources, in the powerstack hal directory).

In the video you can see the guy using a standard S3 cheapo VGA card. Almost all other RISC machines supporting WinNT had only a few subset of supported graphic adapters built in firmware, and using any other video card could result in unbootable systems, like Acer PICA, or the MIPS magnum, that can't boot windows NT without their bundled video adapters.

Thinkpad 860 Laptop: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bxJIA8hscI

Some system models can boot directly from the NT CD, other system models require a new set of HAL (ARC) bootdisks. Almost all the required info to install the system can be found in this page:

http://mcbx.netne.net/computers/portabl ... /index.htm (Warning: some times the page doesn't load, you need wait days to find it working)
Well, I found that video after first seeing the machine advertised in PC Magazine but with no operating system specified, and I searched online to find information about it running Windows NT (infact, it was even one of many machines which Windows NT was officially designed and tested to run on since the brand name and model were officially recognized by Windows NT Setup if you watch the same video closely).

However, while that particular machine (and other similar systems) may have the same (or similar) CPU, that does not mean that a PowerPC-based Apple Macintosh will run Windows NT natively. There are significant differences between different machines other than for the processor - there are different bus designs, different disk controllers, and possibly even different video standards. The Motorola PowerStack II mentioned above, for example, uses the PCI and ISA bus designs, while an Apple Macintosh from that time period would be proprietary. You also would likely have different chipsets and definitely different firmware, which is yet another reason why two PowerPC machines are not necessarily compatible with each other.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Apple running Windows NT 3.51 for PPC?        Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 6:50 pm 
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GL1zdA wrote:
There were 2 43Ps: the 7248-43P and 7043-43P. The first ones are the Power Series 830/850 computers and should run NT. The second ones are the OpenFirmware machines and their hardware is different from the older Power Series. I've tried the ARC boot disks (version 1.51) years ago (in 2009) but they didn't work. The floppy was OK, because I've installed NT on a 7024-E30 with it. There was at least one other person that I asked to do it on a 7043-43P and it didn't work. Since then I haven't tried to ask other people to do it to avoid [censored] them off ;)
RS/6000 7043-140 @ comp.sys.ibm.ps2.hardware


Oh no. As i though, your RS/6000 is one of those rare PReP machines based in OpenFirmware, i just checked the info.

There's no way that NT would boot in those, nor any CHRP OFW based RS/6000. While is true that Firmworks was working in HAL/VEENER/Forth drivers to make NT work in such platforms as explained in the page that i linked before, no result reached the public ever.

The only RS/6000 PReP machines that can boot NT are the ones with Power Personal System Firmware (Dakota). That's all the Power Series derivates only, as you pointed in your post.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Apple running Windows NT 3.51 for PPC?        Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 11:36 pm 
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I have a Motorola Powerstack MT604-133, which *should* be able to run NT (as well as aix and the rare powerpc version of solaris), does anyone have any documentation or installation guides for this hardware?


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 PostPost subject: Re: Apple running Windows NT 3.51 for PPC?        Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 5:18 pm 
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bert64 wrote:
I have a Motorola Powerstack MT604-133, which *should* be able to run NT (as well as aix and the rare powerpc version of solaris), does anyone have any documentation or installation guides for this hardware?

I've never done this, but I guess it's similar to how it works on an RS/6000. You need the ARC floppies to launch setup. Have you tried this: Setting Up Windows NT on Motorola PowerStack When Drive Is New?

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 PostPost subject: Re: Apple running Windows NT 3.51 for PPC?        Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 11:26 pm 
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I didn't read that page, but something similar...
I have the firmware image, the NT4 cd and arcinst.exe, but what i don't have is the boot disk... And without that, i'm stuck on the first step.

I read a page here:
https://web.archive.org/web/19970720143 ... grade.html

and i have the mkflop.exe program for creating the boot disk, but unfortunately its a win32/ppc binary which leaves me with a chicken and egg problem...
Does anyone have the appropriate boot floppy in the form of a raw image that i can write to disk?


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 PostPost subject: Re: Apple running Windows NT 3.51 for PPC?        Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 12:05 am 
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bert64 wrote:
and i have the mkflop.exe program for creating the boot disk

Have you tried to write it to the floppy with RawRite or dd?

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 PostPost subject: Re: Apple running Windows NT 3.51 for PPC?        Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 5:00 pm 
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Writing the fw.img file with dd results in an unbootable disk... Pretty sure you need to run the floppy creator program to make a bootable image.

I am successfully able to write the solaris install floppy (which comes as a raw floppy image for use with dd), and was even able to successfully install solaris although it's quite useless without a working compiler.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Apple running Windows NT 3.51 for PPC?        Posted: Mon May 02, 2016 1:09 pm 
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bert64 wrote:
Writing the fw.img file with dd results in an unbootable disk... Pretty sure you need to run the floppy creator program to make a bootable image.

I am successfully able to write the solaris install floppy (which comes as a raw floppy image for use with dd), and was even able to successfully install solaris although it's quite useless without a working compiler.

Sorry, for bringing back the old topic.

fw.img is the "Motorola Firmware" itself, it's not supposed to be bootable. If you're running ppcbug version you can write it on diskette and load it into the memory with IOP command.
Then use pflash to reprogram FFF00000:FFF7FFFF range(address of ROM0 in MVME1600 - in my case) with its content.
If you are using open firmware, format a diskette in FAT and copy fw.img, then start a command line prompt and type: flash a:\fw.img
This will load the Motorola Firmware, from there you can load arcinst, format your disk and continue the installation.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Apple running Windows NT 3.51 for PPC?        Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:54 pm 
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Power Macintoshes could actually work. The halfire.dll is made for OpenFirmware hardware, but it only supports 601,602, 603 and 604 PPC CPUs and the veneer.exe bootloader is tailored for OpenFirmware as well, but with the same restriction. In the NT4 sources there is the source for halfire and veneer and one could add support for 750 (G3), 7400 (G4) and 970 (G5) CPUs.
Another thing that might be needed is a video driver for newer adapters. Otherwise, everything should work like a charm.

The veneer bootloader is a COFF binary (supported by both world ROMs) that minimally emulates an ARC firmware on top of OpenFirmware and the bootstraps Windows NT.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Apple running Windows NT 3.51 for PPC?        Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 10:27 am 
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d3vi1 wrote:
Power Macintoshes could actually work. The halfire.dll is made for OpenFirmware hardware, but it only supports 601,602, 603 and 604 PPC CPUs and the veneer.exe bootloader is tailored for OpenFirmware as well, but with the same restriction. In the NT4 sources there is the source for halfire and veneer and one could add support for 750 (G3), 7400 (G4) and 970 (G5) CPUs.
Another thing that might be needed is a video driver for newer adapters. Otherwise, everything should work like a charm.

The veneer bootloader is a COFF binary (supported by both world ROMs) that minimally emulates an ARC firmware on top of OpenFirmware and the bootstraps Windows NT.

Maybe you know the proper incantation to run veneer on an RS/6000 43P? It has both OpenFirmware and a 604e cpu, but it fails booting NT setup: NT on 7043-140. It's been 7 years since I've tried it without success.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Apple running Windows NT 3.51 for PPC?        Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 7:25 pm 
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GL1zdA wrote:
Maybe you know the proper incantation to run veneer on an RS/6000 43P? It has both OpenFirmware and a 604e cpu, but it fails booting NT setup: NT on 7043-140. It's been 7 years since I've tried it without success.

Interesting. It reboots with little?=true. It correctly loads and executes veneer.exe.
Try adding the "-vrdebug=0xffffffff" parameter to it and lets see the output again. If that doesn't work, add it as an nvram variable. And ping me by email if you are stuck somewhere.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Apple running Windows NT 3.51 for PPC?        Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 10:11 pm 
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d3vi1 wrote:
GL1zdA wrote:
Maybe you know the proper incantation to run veneer on an RS/6000 43P? It has both OpenFirmware and a 604e cpu, but it fails booting NT setup: NT on 7043-140. It's been 7 years since I've tried it without success.

Interesting. It reboots with little?=true. It correctly loads and executes veneer.exe.
Try adding the "-vrdebug=0xffffffff" parameter to it and lets see the output again. If that doesn't work, add it as an nvram variable. And ping me by email if you are stuck somewhere.

Response is:
Code:
image_base 50000
DEFAULT CATCH!, code=de9dbeef at %SRR0: 00219f80 %SRR1: 00001011

I hope you understand anything from this.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Apple running Windows NT 3.51 for PPC?        Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 9:05 pm 
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Sounds like it's halting at "segment register" 0 and 1. Default catch could mean that it doesn't recognize the operand so the condition falls through due to lack of handler for the address/range (Or data isn't there to further the bootstrap). That's all I can attempt to make out of it.

https://www.usbid.com/datasheets/usbid/ ... 1ev_um.pdf

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Quote:
#define SR0 141 /* Segment Register ($sr0) */
#define SR1 142 /* Segment Register ($sr1) */


It may be possible to peer into PPC loader code for Linux on Prep in something circa 1994-1996 to get a better understanding since the issue with the strap would be a particular.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Apple running Windows NT 3.51 for PPC?        Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:32 am 
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Right now, there are 3 restrictions to running Windows NT 4 PPC on a Mac:
1) OpenFirmware boots correctly with little?=true, but the ATI VGA Card doesn't display anything. It should work with serial redirection though.
2) The HAL won't work with 750, 7400 or 950 CPUs (G3, G4 or G5) unless you fake a 603/604 CPU in the openfirmware node properties or you modify the HAL. That can be achieved using a boot-info chrp script. In theory, a boot-info chrp script could also include a PE-COFF loader for testing with OpenBios.
3) Apple's OpenFirmware environment doesn't support MBR partition tables which are required by Windows NT. This could also be supported by extending OF within the boot-info chrp script.

Good news:
Apple's OpenFirmware in my PowerMac G4 MDD has PE-COFF loading support unlike other implementations such as OpenBios in QEMU and it does actually load veneer.exe.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Apple running Windows NT 3.51 for PPC?        Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:03 am 
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d3vi1 wrote:
Right now, there are 3 restrictions to running Windows NT 4 PPC on a Mac:
1) OpenFirmware boots correctly with little?=true, but the ATI VGA Card doesn't display anything. It should work with serial redirection though.
2) The HAL won't work with 750, 7400 or 950 CPUs (G3, G4 or G5) unless you fake a 603/604 CPU in the openfirmware node properties or you modify the HAL. That can be achieved using a boot-info chrp script. In theory, a boot-info chrp script could also include a PE-COFF loader for testing with OpenBios.
3) Apple's OpenFirmware environment doesn't support MBR partition tables which are required by Windows NT. This could also be supported by extending OF within the boot-info chrp script.

Good news:
Apple's OpenFirmware in my PowerMac G4 MDD has PE-COFF loading support unlike other implementations such as OpenBios in QEMU and it does actually load veneer.exe.


Good to hear that PowerPC Mac support is being worked on for Windows NT, I remember there were plans to port NT4 to Macintosh in the early development stages for OpenNT, When it gets to the point where progress is made to get it to boot, I could do testing on any one of my spare Macs in my collection.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Apple running Windows NT 3.51 for PPC?        Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 8:44 am 
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MSUser2013 wrote:
Good to hear that PowerPC Mac support is being worked on for Windows NT, I remember there were plans to port NT4 to Macintosh in the early development stages for OpenNT, When it gets to the point where progress is made to get it to boot, I could do testing on any one of my spare Macs in my collection.


Nope, I'm not actively working on this. I just investigated the situation. It would be a great candidate for a GSOC for QEMU though.

If anyone wants to make this work, they need to be fluent in forth which I'm not and I find-it counter-intuitive (mostly because of the reverse polish notation). One would need to write a PE-COFF loader and a MBR partition interpreter and put them in the boot-info.txt file, then write properties to /chosen that select a PCI HAL (trial and error here) and finally, patch the CPU support by emulating PPC603 compatible CPU properties. We need to modify OFW and OpenBios PPC builds for QEMU to also include MBR/FAT32 support and to make sure that they boot with little?=true;

Alternatively, one could redo what veneer does and make an ARC firmware emulator for OpenFirmware/PPC which in turn loads the setupldr or osloader. Fortunately that could be done in C and compiled into ELF or A.OUT which all firmwares support. Veneer.exe is unfortunately compiled as a PE-COFF. And if anyone has insight on PPC CPU information, maybe (just maybe) we could also dynamically switch the CPU to LE mode without rebooting or setting little?=true.


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