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 PostPost subject: Help! Macintosh LCII Networking?        Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 11:58 am 
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Hello all. Here's the scoop: My PowerBook 190cs (1995) died on me the other day (the screen appears blank (white) right when I start it up. That's it). Anyways, the floppy I used for it was "DOS compatible" so my HP Pavilion 4535 (1999) could read the files quite easily.

Now, here's the real issue: I no longer have a way of backing up my Macintosh LCII (1992) files by floppy, as its contents can't be read on my Windows PC. The LCII still works, but I was wondering if there was a way to possibly network the system to my PowerBook G3 or even the Windows system easily?

The Macintosh LCII has the LocalTalk (AppleTalk) port for networking and printing, an SCSI port, and a floppy drive. The G3 has a modem, ethernet, USB, a SCSI-30 (not the same), CD-ROM, and other devices that in no way, match the LCII.

Is it really worth getting the ethernet card on ebay (for about $20) and upgrading my LCII, or is there a way to make my floppies be read on ANY system?

Thank you SO MUCH!
Troy


EDIT: This is what software is on the system. I can't find a lot of the files ANYWHERE on the internet.

-System 7.0.1 with System 7 Tuneup
-Jetsons / Bugs Bunny / Daffy Duck Startup Screens (IN COLOR!)
-KidDesk (it's corrupted :( )
-After Dark Control Panel (can't find v2.0)
-Shufflepuck Cafe (with music & sound working!)
-Destroyer (Battleship; 1984)
-Hardball (found it on MacGarden...corrupted...)
-Coke Is It sounds / The Simpsons / Movie Themes
-SoundMaster
-Wheel (original from 1984)

Either way, I wish there was a way to perk up the system, since it's in bad shape (like the PRAM battery is dead, but that's the least of my worries). There are a few extensions that were once on there but then deleted. Finally, I tried making a System 6 Startup Disk on my windows pc, and it didn't work. System 7 sucks on the LCII in terms of speed.

EDIT2:
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(when it's available; uploaded 11:20 PM EST)

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 6:03 pm 
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You can get floppy's read on Windows using HFV Explorer. But i do think it probably is worth it getting your mac a Ethernet Card because then you can go on the internet with it and that's fun :P. or you can buy yourself a Low Spec PowerPC mac like PowerMac 7200 because they have Printer/Modem ports (Localtalk) Which you could use for a transfer method, Floppy Drive and Ethernet to connect to your g3.


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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 9:16 pm 
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According to Apple Service Source, the steps to address the PowerBook's problem are:

1 Adjust screen contrast and brightness settings.
2 Verify cable, inverter board, and logic board connections.
3 Replace inverter board.
4 Replace display.
5 Replace logic board.

If it is just white that would suggest the backlight is on but there is no data reaching the screen, so I would check the connection of the data cable to the screen, if you are confident in opening the machine. It may be that the logic board has died though.


Could you not also use a Fat-formatted floppy on the LC though? If you install Mac OS 7.5 or 7.6 you can install PC Exchange on it, which lets it read Fat-format disks. If using Mac OS 7.0 or 7.1 and you really don't want to upgrade then I think you can install PC Exchange separately - you may be able to copy in the necessaries from OS 7.5 rather than find a separate installer.

Or you could find a SCSI Zip drive for the LC - a lot of B&W G3s have built-in Zip drives, or if you don't have one in there you could find a USB one as well.

With Ethernet, how would you get the files across from the LC? Neither Windows XP/Vista or OS X Tiger support AppleTalk, and Mac OS Clasic doesn't support SMB. I suppose you would have to use FTP or something like that.

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 10:59 pm 
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Vista Ultimate R2 wrote:
With Ethernet, how would you get the files across from the LC? Neither Windows XP/Vista or OS X Tiger support AppleTalk, and Mac OS Clasic doesn't support SMB. I suppose you would have to use FTP or something like that.


Windows 2000 (server) supports AppleTalk ... perhaps a crazy setup that would work could be an ethernet card in the LC, using the AppleTalk protocol, connected to your main machine running VMWare. Inside VMWare is Windows 2000 Server configured with AppleTalk, but with the networking set so it can connect to the LC. Gotta love virtualisation. :D

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 11:28 pm 
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Vista Ultimate R2 wrote:
Could you not also use a Fat-formatted floppy on the LC though?

Older Macs (pre-SuperDrive) use a different physical sector alignment (which, on both Macs and PCs, is determined at the hardware level), and thus are physically incompatible with PC-formatted floppies (PCs are also physically incompatible with older Mac floppies). Amigas had a floppy drive that was compatible with both PC and Mac floppies (as on Amigas, the sector alignment could be set by software).

Localtalk is not a protocol, but another network standard, and is incompatible with Ethernet.

I think that, aside from getting a third computer (be it an Amiga or a newer Mac equipped with a SuperDrive), is using an external SCSI drive, as Vista Ultimate R2 suggested.

EDIT: I'm pretty sure early Mac floppy drives use SCSI, so you could try moving the drive to a PC with an internal SCSI port.


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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 11:45 pm 
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LCs do have 1.44 MB SuperDrives, so should work with normal PC disks. The floppy drive is connected by a very small connector - I don't know if it's a type of SCSI but had always assumed not - it's certainly a lot smaller than the LC's SCSI hard drive connector.

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 2:25 am 
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Well, the disks can't be read by Windows 2000, so I may need to install DOS (lol) or Windows 95 onto my system. 3.11 for WG won't work for some reason.

Also, I've really got into the "vintage" mode of things, as I'm bidding on an external CD-ROM drive (so I can get MORE on the system) and a StyleWriter. What I noticed was my ancient HP Deskjet 540 can fit in the SCSI, so I'm working if that could work on the Mac LC II.

The hard drive is also SCSI like the floppy...so perhaps Best Buy or some local store has a way to burn the files to a disc for me like they did for my Packard Bell back when it died. Or, I could just use a million floppies to backup everything like usual. :)

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 2:40 am 
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Erm... Your printer most probably has a parallel/LPT port which is the same 25-pin D-Sub connector as the external Fast SCSI port on the Mac. Nevertheless, these are completely different interfaces and thus it won't work, if your intention was to connect the printer to the SCSI port. In fact, I'd rather not even try it.


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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 2:54 am 
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Which disks can't Windows 2000 read? It should be able to read standard Fat-formatted floppies ie formatted in Windows or Dos, and the Mac will also read those if it has PC Exchange installed. If they are HFS (Mac) format, Windows will not read them unless you install a program like HFV Explorer, TransMac or MacDrive. Also make sure you are using 1.44 MB high-density floppies, not older 800k Mac "double density" ones.

You could always get a USB floppy drive and copy the files directly from the LC to a newer non-floppy Mac, which will be able to read HFS floppies with no problems.

And yes, don't try to plug a Parallel device into a SCSI port, or vice versa. Make sure if you get an external CD, Zip or hard drive for the LC that you are getting a SCSI one (look for the SCSI ID selector on the back), not a Parallel one. Also note that some of the older external CD-drives will only read CD-Rs, not CD-RWs - I have an old AppleCD 300 caddy-loading SCSI one that I was given, and it is like that.

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 9:28 am 
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Perhaps if you weren't in a hurry, you could use a null modem cable ... you can get a cable that has on one end the Mac modem connector and the other end a DB-9 serial port. If you then got a null modem adapter, then fired up some terminal software on each machine you'd have a (very slow!) way of transferring things.

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 12:00 pm 
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Okay, so I lost both bids (lol), but what I did win was a VST-100 Zip drive for my PowerBook G3. The guy said it SHOULD read all floppies (Mac or Win) just fine. It was only $20 with shipping, so hopefully this would work, as well as be usable for backing up files quickly (as my PowerBook G3 does not have a CD-Burner).

Thus, this happens if the disk drive does work:
1. Backup files onto floppy from Macintosh LCII.
2. Insert floppy into PowerBook G3 zip drive.
3. Copy files onto G3 and use internet to send files to Gmail account.
4. Go onto Windows PC and download files from Gmail account.
5. Burn the 40 GB files onto a disc!

It does sound a bit "hectic," but it should be easy. Either way, if the floppy system does work, I'll be able to put more classic programs onto the LCII, as well as get some more space onto the system.


Finally, to answer all of your questions:
1. PC Exchange is not installed. System 7.0.1 with the Tuneup doesn't have it.
2. The LCII doesn't have a modem, although it can be upgraded to have one.
3. I don't plan on buying any more used Macs until I get my new iMac in November. This is basically to save money (and not to mention) save room in my basement for all these Macs. :)

Thanks for all your help! The disk drive should arrive in 2-3 days!
Troy

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 6:16 pm 
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I'm sure that you already know this but Compress the files using i.e Stuffit before transferring it across to Windows because they will loose their Resource Forks.


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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 7:59 pm 
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Why do you want to upload these files to Gmail first and then download them? Is it not possible to network the G3 and the Windows PC and then to transfer the files directly?


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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 8:46 pm 
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troyoda1990 wrote:
PC Exchange is not installed. System 7.0.1 with the Tuneup doesn't have it.

I'm pretty sure you can add PC Exchange to the older versions of OS 7 that didn't originally come with it though, or you can install a newer version on it - I put OS 7.6.1 on my LCII.

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 9:50 am 
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Vista Ultimate R2 wrote:
troyoda1990 wrote:
PC Exchange is not installed. System 7.0.1 with the Tuneup doesn't have it.

I'm pretty sure you can add PC Exchange to the older versions of OS 7 that didn't originally come with it though, or you can install a newer version on it - I put OS 7.6.1 on my LCII.
Doesn't 7.6.1 run slowly on the LCII though? I've heard the smaller the number, the faster (like 6.08L screams on the Mac).

Also, I was just explaining the "logical" way of how I'd back these files up. Of course, I could network the files, but hey. lol

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 9:57 am 
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I tend to always run the newest OS version that my machines can take, eg I have Mac OS 9.1 on my Power Mac 6100/60 (first-gen PPC), 7.6.1 on LCII, 10.4.9 on Beige G3 etc. The LC and LCII are not especially fast machines anyway so in my opinion 7.6.1 is a good choice (as nothing is going to be lightening fast), though others may find it too slow compared to the older versions (generally Classic Mac OSes got slightly heavier with each version up to 9.2.2, and then the X releases actually get faster with each revision). I don't like System 6 as it's far too old-fashioned and basic for anything other than a curiosity, and I think if you're going to run 7.x you might as well use the version with the most updates and features, which is 7.6.1 (the LCII can't run 8.x). If you really want the fastest machine possible then 7.0 or 7.1 will be faster, so it's really down to personal preference - I personally prefer features/modern-ness.

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 6:12 pm 
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troyoda1990 wrote:
Vista Ultimate R2 wrote:
troyoda1990 wrote:
PC Exchange is not installed. System 7.0.1 with the Tuneup doesn't have it.

I'm pretty sure you can add PC Exchange to the older versions of OS 7 that didn't originally come with it though, or you can install a newer version on it - I put OS 7.6.1 on my LCII.
Doesn't 7.6.1 run slowly on the LCII though? I've heard the smaller the number, the faster (like 6.08L screams on the Mac).

Also, I was just explaining the "logical" way of how I'd back these files up. Of course, I could network the files, but hey. lol

Nah mac os 7.6.1 runs fine on a LC II if you have enough ram.
If you really PC Exchange you can get the extension off a the apple support site iirc.
http://www.info.apple.com/support/older ... elist.html
and it does work on System 7.0.1


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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 9:21 am 
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merty wrote:
troyoda1990 wrote:
Vista Ultimate R2 wrote:
troyoda1990 wrote:
PC Exchange is not installed. System 7.0.1 with the Tuneup doesn't have it.

I'm pretty sure you can add PC Exchange to the older versions of OS 7 that didn't originally come with it though, or you can install a newer version on it - I put OS 7.6.1 on my LCII.
Doesn't 7.6.1 run slowly on the LCII though? I've heard the smaller the number, the faster (like 6.08L screams on the Mac).

Also, I was just explaining the "logical" way of how I'd back these files up. Of course, I could network the files, but hey. lol

Nah mac os 7.6.1 runs fine on a LC II if you have enough ram.
If you really PC Exchange you can get the extension off a the apple support site iirc.
http://www.info.apple.com/support/older ... elist.html
and it does work on System 7.0.1
That's probably the first thing I'm doing when the floppy module arrives is putting PC Exchange on the LCII. However, I need to free up a load of disk space before I can upgrade the system software. I've got under 1MB free. :D

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 7:02 am 
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BUMP Update

So I'm kinda mad as of now seeing that I got the VST 100 Zip Drive for PowerBook G3 laptops, and it works (it lights up green). Little did I know that it DOES NOT read floppy disks. Although I paid $20 for the thing, I expected it to read floppies. Now, yeah, using it would be cool as well as using zip disks for once, but it defeats the purpose of backing up files off the Mac LCII, the main reason I got the thing!

So could someone please tell me that it actually does read 3.5 floppy discs? If not, I'm going to have to send it back...but I don't know how to do so for an ebay seller. :S

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 7:36 am 
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What your seller meant was the Zip drive will read both FAT and HFS(+) formatted Zip disks. AFAIK, Zip drives were never able to read floppy disks. LS120 drives were able to read normal 1.44MB floppies as well, but Zip drives – no. The floppies don't even fit mechanically .


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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 7:43 am 
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troyoda1990 wrote:
I'm going to have to send it back...but I don't know how to do so for an ebay seller. :S

Depends if they offered returns or not (should say in the original listing) - they don't have to take it back. Why not get a SCSI Zip drive for the LC if you want to use Zip disks with it? They're much better than floppies anyway.

Did you have any luck getting PC Exchange installed, or installing Mac OS 7.5.5 or 7.6.1? If you get that on then you can just use normal PC floppies with it and transfer the files to a floppy-equipped PC. Or just use Mac floppies and install HFV Explorer/TransMac/MacDrive on the PC in order to be able to read them.

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 9:01 am 
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Did you try using normal 1.44MB floppies and reading them on Windows using HFV explorer? I know that was said before, but it should work (I used to be really in to 68k Mac emulation).


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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 9:08 am 
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The issue was that the Mac needs to have PC Exchange installed in order to read FAT-formatted floppies, but that is pretty straightforward given that it is bundled with OS 7.5+ (and I think can even be installed separately on the older versions).

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 3:39 pm 
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Vista Ultimate R2 wrote:
The issue was that the Mac needs to have PC Exchange installed in order to read FAT-formatted floppies, but that is pretty straightforward given that it is bundled with OS 7.5+ (and I think can even be installed separately on the older versions).

The Mac doesn't need PC exchange if the floppies are Mac-formatted. The whole point of HFV explorer is to read Mac-formatted floppies.


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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Fri Jun 01, 2007 4:05 am 
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Sorry, I must have been half asleep last night :oops: Yes, you either need PC Exchange on the Mac or HFV Explorer/TransMac/MacDrive on the PC to be able to read the other platform's format, as already mentioned. I actually prefer TransMac for reading Mac disks on the PC - HFV Explorer occasionally corrupts files, as TransMac does more too eg can burn DiskCopy images to CD. MacDrive is quite nice as it makes it as if Windows had native HFS support ie you just go to My Computer and open the disk as normal, except that my PC suddenly stopped reading PC format CDs at one stage and removing MacDrive made it go back to normal, so I haven't had it installed since.

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