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 PostPost subject: Windows 7 Extended Support details        Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 4:36 am 
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Some of your may have heard of the extension of update availability for Windows 7 updates until 2023, and not only is it true, but I just heard from Microsoft that THEY WILL STILL BE FREE!!!

Most forums or articles say things like this: "Windows 7 Extended Security Updates (ESU) will be sold on a per-device basis for an escalating yearly price. Windows 7 ESU will be available to all Windows 7 Professional and Windows 7 Enterprise customers in Volume Licensing, with a discount to customers with Windows software assurance, Windows 10 Enterprise or Windows 10 Education subscriptions."

This is just like the Server 2003 update thing; PAID SUPPORT IS BULLSHIT!!! Updates will always be free no matter what, and history proves just that. This is going to be Windows XP all over again, only this time we now have what is in essence the XP of Windows 10, complete with advanced features and major graphical hardware acceleration support. For all you gamers out there it's no DirectX 12, but for those of us that stick with older software and do architectural work, DirectX 11 will do just fine. (and it's certainly better than the obsolete DirectX 9, and version 10 was always useless)

here's a clipping of my conversation with a Microsoft Support person to prove to all the skeptics that updates will always be free: Image

Let me know what you guys think or if you can prove the latter is true.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 7 Extended Support details        Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:53 am 
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Yeah, I guess that's what happens when MS uses tech support scammers barely speaking English for legit customer service. The same people also "confirmed" the Surface Phone.

Windows 7 Extended Security Updates
As previously announced, Windows 7 extended support is ending January 14, 2020. While many of you are already well on your way in deploying Windows 10, we understand that everyone is at a different point in the upgrade process.

With that in mind, today we are announcing that we will offer paid Windows 7 Extended Security Updates (ESU) through January 2023. The Windows 7 ESU will be sold on a per-device basis and the price will increase each year. Windows 7 ESUs will be available to all Windows 7 Professional and Windows 7 Enterprise customers in Volume Licensing, with a discount to customers with Windows software assurance, Windows 10 Enterprise or Windows 10 Education subscriptions. In addition, Office 365 ProPlus will be supported on devices with active Windows 7 Extended Security Updates (ESU) through January 2023. This means that customers who purchase the Windows 7 ESU will be able to continue to run Office 365 ProPlus.

Please reach out to your partner or Microsoft account team for further details.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 7 Extended Support details        Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:21 pm 
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AlphaBeta wrote:
Yeah, I guess that's what happens when MS uses tech support scammers barely speaking English for legit customer service. The same people also "confirmed" the Surface Phone.

Windows 7 Extended Security Updates
As previously announced, Windows 7 extended support is ending January 14, 2020. While many of you are already well on your way in deploying Windows 10, we understand that everyone is at a different point in the upgrade process.

With that in mind, today we are announcing that we will offer paid Windows 7 Extended Security Updates (ESU) through January 2023. The Windows 7 ESU will be sold on a per-device basis and the price will increase each year. Windows 7 ESUs will be available to all Windows 7 Professional and Windows 7 Enterprise customers in Volume Licensing, with a discount to customers with Windows software assurance, Windows 10 Enterprise or Windows 10 Education subscriptions. In addition, Office 365 ProPlus will be supported on devices with active Windows 7 Extended Security Updates (ESU) through January 2023. This means that customers who purchase the Windows 7 ESU will be able to continue to run Office 365 ProPlus.

Please reach out to your partner or Microsoft account team for further details.


What do you mean "MS uses tech support scammers?" Are you saying they may have mislead me on purpose, even though I went through their official support line?


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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 7 Extended Support details        Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:43 pm 
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No, that was more or less a sarcastic remark.

You have simply contacted the support team that is supposed to deal with home customer's daily issues. The extended updates are not meant for these customers (it's mentioned in the quote I posted), they will simply stop receiving updates in January 2020. The support guy is simply not aware that there are some paid updates after 2020 offered to volume customers.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 7 Extended Support details        Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:51 pm 
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AlphaBeta wrote:
No, that was more or less a sarcastic remark.

You have simply contacted the support team that is supposed to deal with home customer's daily issues. The extended updates are not meant for these customers (it's mentioned in the quote I posted), they will simply stop receiving updates in January 2020. The support guy is simply not aware that there are some paid updates after 2020 offered to volume customers.


Exactly.
In the same way than Windows Embedded and POSReady, based in XP, still keep receiving paid only updates per license basis. Which doesn't meant normal XP is still supported and receiving updates. In fact, many of these updates can't be directly applied to XP anymore.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 7 Extended Support details        Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:21 pm 
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Hyoenmadan86 wrote:
AlphaBeta wrote:
No, that was more or less a sarcastic remark.

You have simply contacted the support team that is supposed to deal with home customer's daily issues. The extended updates are not meant for these customers (it's mentioned in the quote I posted), they will simply stop receiving updates in January 2020. The support guy is simply not aware that there are some paid updates after 2020 offered to volume customers.


Exactly.
In the same way than Windows Embedded and POSReady, based in XP, still keep receiving paid only updates per license basis. Which doesn't meant normal XP is still supported and receiving updates. In fact, many of these updates can't be directly applied to XP anymore.


Okay, now I have an argument to make. Let's see, we know that XP updates are made, for example, "In the same way than Windows Embedded and POSReady, based in XP, still keep receiving paid only updates," but regardless of "paid" status, it is more than possible to locate and retrieve these other updates from the windows update catalog (or other sources) and apply them to the classic XP platform fairly easily, so I would wager that the same will be true for the "paid" windows 7 updates coming after support ends.

Off topic, to the comment "In fact, many of these updates can't be directly applied to XP anymore." Why not? XP embedded updates should all work fine on XP itself, but I understand if it's a little different for some POSready flavors like WEPOS 2009 or similar updates.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 7 Extended Support details        Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:32 pm 
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POSReady uses XP's core, but it's different on top, as the system is a based (Mostly) on NET, so most of updates are for NET things, also there are other reasons which I can't remember right now, but the updates of POSReady 2009 usually break a normal XP installation (You can test it by yourself)

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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 7 Extended Support details        Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:52 am 
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Krytus wrote:
Off topic, to the comment "In fact, many of these updates can't be directly applied to XP anymore." Why not? XP embedded updates should all work fine on XP itself, but I understand if it's a little different for some POSready flavors like WEPOS 2009 or similar updates.

Actually, isn't because the XP codebase is incompatible with XPe and like editions them can't be applied directly to XP anymore, but because MS added artificial checks to all the updated components to make sure you don't circunvent the license covering these updates. These include different signature for files and signature catalogs for the updated files which can be only validated against the Windows Embedded signature catalog, and extra checks and changed codepaths to rely in the system license manager DPCDLL and PIDGEN so the files can only run in the licensed SKU for them.

Situation can be worse for Win7. It has a better license manager framework than XP (SLMGR), which is protected against patching via Windows Code Signature Enforcement. All the Windows features and components already check against SLMGR to check if certain windows component can run with the puchased sku/license. So for MS isn't hard to add extra license manifests to check the newer updated files are running only in the entitled licenses/SKUs them were intented for. That is what they did for Media Center downloadable component after all.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 7 Extended Support details        Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:31 am 
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Hyoenmadan86 wrote:
Situation can be worse for Win7. It has a better license manager framework than XP (SLMGR), which is protected against patching via Windows Code Signature Enforcement. All the Windows features and components already check against SLMGR to check if certain windows component can run with the puchased sku/license. So for MS isn't hard to add extra license manifests to check the newer updated files are running only in the entitled licenses/SKUs them were intended for. That is what they did for Media Center downloadable component after all.


Why does MS care about this licensing bullshit anymore? DON'T THEY REALIZE THAT THEIR DECREPIT CODE IS SO EASILY PATCHED AND BYPASSED, SELLING SOFTWARE IS A LOST CAUSE!?!

They've made hundreds of millions, maybe even billions of dollars on the Windows OS for more years than I care to count, and now that everyone knows how it works and how to use it in perpetuity, WHAT IS THE POINT OF SELLING AN OPERATING SYSTEM???

I do agree that with this in mind, new patches will be difficult to use, BUT NOTHING WILL STOP THEM FROM BEING ASSEMBLED SOMEHOW, EVENTUALLY. Enthusiast forums are evident that even incompatible updates can be forced to work, if the code is close enough, especially in the case in windows 7. This will NOT be another windows 98...(if you know what I mean)

Yes licensing will continue to be a problem, I'm not here to debate that, much less to idealize how people can use an MS OS for free. Rather, I intend to extrapolate what must be done to combat the problem of installing future updates with such checks in place. Tell me, what are people doing to install similar updates to windows XP right now, and I ask very literally.... More to the point, just because they can't be installed inside a functioning OS doesn't mean they can't be integrated to an installation disc. I don't know how many have attempted such a thing with XP platforms, but that leaves me to wonder the fate of system integrity for Windows Server 2008 R2, especially the Enterprise and Datacenter editions, given the nature of it's similarity to Windows 7 Professional and Enterprise.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 7 Extended Support details        Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:05 pm 
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Krytus wrote:
Why does MS care about this licensing bullshit anymore? 1* DON'T THEY REALIZE THAT THEIR DECREPIT CODE IS SO EASILY PATCHED AND BYPASSED, SELLING SOFTWARE IS A LOST CAUSE!?!

They've made hundreds of millions, maybe even billions of dollars on the Windows OS for more years than I care to count, and now that everyone knows how it works and how to use it in perpetuity, WHAT IS THE POINT OF SELLING AN OPERATING SYSTEM???

I do agree that with this in mind, new patches will be difficult to use, 2* BUT NOTHING WILL STOP THEM FROM BEING ASSEMBLED SOMEHOW, EVENTUALLY. Enthusiast forums are evident that even incompatible updates can be forced to work, if the code is close enough, especially in the case in windows 7. This will NOT be another windows 98...(if you know what I mean)

Yes licensing will continue to be a problem, I'm not here to debate that, much less to idealize how people can use an MS OS for free. Rather, I intend to extrapolate what must be done to combat the problem of installing future updates with such checks in place. 3* Tell me, what are people doing to install similar updates to windows XP right now, and I ask very literally.... 4* More to the point, just because they can't be installed inside a functioning OS doesn't mean they can't be integrated to an installation disc. I don't know how many have attempted such a thing with XP platforms, but that leaves me to wonder the fate of system integrity for Windows Server 2008 R2, especially the Enterprise and Datacenter editions, given the nature of it's similarity to Windows 7 Professional and Enterprise.


1* Patch with unknown code gotten from 3rd party unverified forums defeats entirely the reason of applying security updates at all. You would inadvertently injecting malicious code and running it without knowing a fsck about it. Then you would be running an unpatched outdated system OS and be completely fine as long as the system isn't connected to internet. Also...

2* This sort of protection wasn't created to stop kids and forum haxxors with a lot of free time to crack/circunvent it, but for their licensed clients entitled with genuine VLK agreements, which can't use these things in a production environment, to dissuade them to buy/maintain Win7 assets, so them will eventually be "forced" to migrate to Win10, and MS finally will be able to stop updates to Win7 and EOL it as they have planned. Remember... They keep offering security updates to win7 because they big volume clients. For win7 they don't care on retail user, which should be using Win10 already.

3* Remember what i said before about WPA vs the new Win7 SLMGR. Everyone knows the checks aren't that extensive in XP, the license engine is a little primitive and the WPA itself wasn't well integrated in the OS back then. This isn't the case of Win7 and upwards for the reasons i gave before.

4* In Win7+,the checks aren't only in windows update or pkmgr, but inside each updated dll and component too. You can't bypass them installing the updates offline.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 7 Extended Support details        Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:46 pm 
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But technically you could run them in "compatible" mode, by making it think it is what it expects (DLL versions, IDK)...

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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 7 Extended Support details        Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:08 pm 
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SistemaRayoXP wrote:
But technically you could run them in "compatible" mode, by making it think it is what it expects (DLL versions, IDK)...


It doesn't check for the Winver(), or anything like that, but ask directly to SLMGR for validation data and check if the component is allowed to run in the current running Windows Edition SKU. For sure you will not skip the checks with a simple "compatibility shim". You only way to force these things to work is hacking SLMGR.

I don't say isn't possible. After all DigitalLife forum guys managed to make Windows Media Center component to work with Win10 by hacking SLMGR. I only say for is enough MS, as it defeats the purpose of applying security patches by having running arbitrary 3rd party code which fsck with the OS. Is also something their partners can't use at all in production systems to circumvent the measure. Sooner or later they will have to stop supporting Win7 due increased maintenance cost, and then MS will just stop producing security patches for it.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 7 Extended Support details        Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:00 pm 
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Hyoenmadan86 wrote:
SistemaRayoXP wrote:
But technically you could run them in "compatible" mode, by making it think it is what it expects (DLL versions, IDK)...


It doesn't check for the Winver(), or anything like that, but ask directly to SLMGR for validation data and check if the component is allowed to run in the current running Windows Edition SKU. For sure you will not skip the checks with a simple "compatibility shim". You only way to force these things to work is hacking SLMGR.


I've heard of SLMGR being modded in more ways than I can understand, how hard could it be for a simple code trick to make some fancy updates work? Even more so if the OS was activated with a genuine key, not patch...

Really, I'm more concerned with the server variant of Windows 7; 2008 R2. No word on update extension for 2K8R2, possibly making update extension for windows 7 a moot point (at least in my operating environment.) Personally I might end up doing the same thing I did with XP and just run it with the most recent updates available, and fortify it with advanced firewall/security software. I don't have the time of day to attempt what the soft modders do and slip XPe updates into XP. So what if Windows 7 misses a couple little security updates, all I care about is having a stable operating platform. One of the reasons I stay with XP and soon W7 as well is because by the time it's been decommissioned, it's service life will have yielded effective maintenance techniques that will keep the system solid for a good long time to those who truly understand how it works, and thus life will go on. Look at some systems from the 80's and 90's, some are still floating around and operating today, most of which have long outlived their service life and NEVER EVER had a problem so bad it couldn't be fixed (except in the case in Win 9x, ME, and some instances of 2k).


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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 7 Extended Support details        Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:24 pm 
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Krytus wrote:
I've heard of SLMGR being modded in more ways than I can understand, how hard could it be for a simple code trick to make some fancy updates work? Even more so if the OS was activated with a genuine key, not patch...

Really, I'm more concerned with the server variant of Windows 7; 2008 R2. No word on update extension for 2K8R2, possibly making update extension for windows 7 a moot point (at least in my operating environment.) Personally I might end up doing the same thing I did with XP and just run it with the most recent updates available, and fortify it with advanced firewall/security software. I don't have the time of day to attempt what the soft modders do and slip XPe updates into XP. So what if Windows 7 misses a couple little security updates, all I care about is having a stable operating platform. One of the reasons I stay with XP and soon W7 as well is because by the time it's been decommissioned, it's service life will have yielded effective maintenance techniques that will keep the system solid for a good long time to those who truly understand how it works, and thus life will go on. Look at some systems from the 80's and 90's, some are still floating around and operating today, most of which have long outlived their service life and NEVER EVER had a problem so bad it couldn't be fixed (except in the case in Win 9x, ME, and some instances of 2k).


I actually didn't know that Server 2008 is still supported until I read their press announcement. Who is running 2008 anyway?


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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 7 Extended Support details        Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:18 pm 
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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 7 Extended Support details        Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:22 pm 
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cool_charac wrote:
Krytus wrote:
I've heard of SLMGR being modded in more ways than I can understand, how hard could it be for a simple code trick to make some fancy updates work? Even more so if the OS was activated with a genuine key, not patch...

Really, I'm more concerned with the server variant of Windows 7; 2008 R2. No word on update extension for 2K8R2, possibly making update extension for windows 7 a moot point (at least in my operating environment.) Personally I might end up doing the same thing I did with XP and just run it with the most recent updates available, and fortify it with advanced firewall/security software. I don't have the time of day to attempt what the soft modders do and slip XPe updates into XP. So what if Windows 7 misses a couple little security updates, all I care about is having a stable operating platform. One of the reasons I stay with XP and soon W7 as well is because by the time it's been decommissioned, it's service life will have yielded effective maintenance techniques that will keep the system solid for a good long time to those who truly understand how it works, and thus life will go on. Look at some systems from the 80's and 90's, some are still floating around and operating today, most of which have long outlived their service life and NEVER EVER had a problem so bad it couldn't be fixed (except in the case in Win 9x, ME, and some instances of 2k).


I actually didn't know that Server 2008 is still supported until I read their press announcement. Who is running 2008 anyway?


2008 RTM (original R1) is only useful as a personal desktop with possible performance optimizations and dual purpose operation as a file server. I use 2008 R2 because it actually does what it's supposed to. Not to mention, 2K8R2 is way more mature and more functional, and easier to use and manage than ANY server 2012/2016 system.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 7 Extended Support details        Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:47 pm 
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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 7 Extended Support details        Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:14 pm 
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It's a pity that Windows 7 will end its extended support period and stop receiving updates after that, it is a very beautiful and attractive operating system. But, if Microsoft releases paid updates, where can they be purchased? Also, will Windows 7 be able to receive updates for POSReady 7 with a trick similar to the one found in XP where you could install POSReady 2009 updates?


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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 7 Extended Support details        Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:15 am 
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Gustav Vasa wrote:
It's a pity that Windows 7 will end its extended support period and stop receiving updates after that, it is a very beautiful and attractive operating system. But, if Microsoft releases paid updates, where can they be purchased? Also, will Windows 7 be able to receive updates for POSReady 7 with a trick similar to the one found in XP where you could install POSReady 2009 updates?


That's what I'd like to know. M$ works in mysterious ways.
On the POS updates, I highly doubt it. That's probably why they're offering paid updates for 7, they're VERY aware of the XP bypass as of recent years. Too bad they couldn't backport DirectX 11 and the W7 version of taskman and resmon (the detailed resource viewer) to windows XP, as that's literally THE ONLY REASON I even bother with Windows 7 in the first place.

The only exception to all of this is that Server 2008 R2 is well worth the upgrade from the simple and minimal 2003 OS. Server 2008 (R1 and R2) has a much higher grade of performance and management characteristics than ANY other Windows OS. With that I'm best off hardening my 2K8R2 system and return to XP in a VM. The only question now is whether to use the obsolete, well integrated Hyper-V, or the improved, workstation version of VMware... (Given the architecture of my project ESXi is OUT of the question)


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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 7 Extended Support details        Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:38 pm 
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Even if the updates after 2020 will be paid, you better believe there will be someone out there that will both find a way to get those updates for free, and install them on versions outside of Pro and Enterprise. People were able to make POSReady updates work with XP, after all.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 7 Extended Support details        Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:10 pm 
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YourAverageJoe wrote:
Even if the updates after 2020 will be paid, you better believe there will be someone out there that will both find a way to get those updates for free, and install them on versions outside of Pro and Enterprise. People were able to make POSReady updates work with XP, after all.

POSReady updates are freely available. Not the case for the paid security updates.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 7 Extended Support details        Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 10:02 pm 
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Could ISOs with the ESU pre-installed exist or a fanmade SP2 with it?


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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 7 Extended Support details        Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:52 pm 
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AaronReturn2004 wrote:
Could ISOs with the ESU pre-installed exist or a fanmade SP2 with it?


SP2 on Win7, really? I get the whole XP SP4 thing, but Windows 7?!? Sweet mother of god, whyyyyyyy??? For all that, M$ should drop W7 cold and come back at the end of 2023 with a kicka$$ SP2 for W7, and then provide updates for the next year or so, as per their Service Pack support schedule, to fix any issues with the SP, and leave W7 alone in it's finest, most complete and final operating state.

I still feel like XP could be revived at ANY TIME. Think about it, what better way to patch hundreds of thousands of security issues than to wait until hackers have taken advantage of what they think is unsupported and expose what needs to be fixed? Maybe they won't do it with XP necessarily, and they haven't done it before, but pushing W7 away is such a missed opportunity... All that W7 really needs is an update to add DirectX 12, and higher RAM address capabilities.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 7 Extended Support details        Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:33 pm 
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Krytus wrote:
I still feel like XP could be revived at ANY TIME. Think about it, what better way to patch hundreds of thousands of security issues than to wait until hackers have taken advantage of what they think is unsupported and expose what needs to be fixed? Maybe they won't do it with XP necessarily, and they haven't done it before, but pushing W7 away is such a missed opportunity... All that W7 really needs is an update to add DirectX 12, and higher RAM address capabilities.

Would you pay for that all?...

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 PostPost subject: Re: Windows 7 Extended Support details        Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:11 pm 
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Krytus wrote:
AaronReturn2004 wrote:
Could ISOs with the ESU pre-installed exist or a fanmade SP2 with it?
SP2 on Win7, really? I get the whole XP SP4 thing, but Windows 7?!? Sweet mother of god, whyyyyyyy???
Because some people like 7 and want to keep using it, and don't like 10. Or maybe 10 doesn't work on their machine.
Krytus wrote:
For all that, M$ should drop W7 cold and come back at the end of 2023 with a kicka$$ SP2 for W7, and then provide updates for the next year or so, as per their Service Pack support schedule, to fix any issues with the SP, and leave W7 alone in it's finest, most complete and final operating state.

The whole point of continuous updates are to fix bugs as they are brought to light. The platform would be just as 'complete' now as it would be in a year. People are leaving 7 because MS won't guarantee it's security anymore.
Krytus wrote:
I still feel like XP could be revived at ANY TIME. Think about it, what better way to patch hundreds of thousands of security issues than to wait until hackers have taken advantage of what they think is unsupported and expose what needs to be fixed?
IDK, maybe just fixing them as they come up?
Krytus wrote:
Maybe they won't do it with XP necessarily, and they haven't done it before, but pushing W7 away is such a missed opportunity... All that W7 really needs is an update to add DirectX 12, and higher RAM address capabilities.
It doesn't really make much business sense for any dev to spend time and money developing for and supporting a depreciated platform, especially when selling a replacement gets them more revenue and control.


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