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 PostPost subject: Re: Microsoft Chicago build 58s hangs at bootscreen        Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 1:54 am 
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Anyway... I am on mobile right now... My pc is pretty much dead...

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 PostPost subject: Re: Microsoft Chicago build 58s hangs at bootscreen        Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 1:58 am 
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AlphaBeta wrote:
SuriPolomareFan2003 wrote:
Use Virtual PC 2007!

Again, it's not recommended to use older versions of Windows under hypervisors as things might break on newer CPUs. What a hypervisor does is that it translates privileged instructions into unprivileged ones, also CPU manufacturers might remove some obsolete or change the behavior of some instructions older operating systems used, which would lead to a crash. Hypervisors also often emulate unreal hardware that is primarily meant to make guest-host integration as best as possible, therefore it's the best for latest operating systems versions.

On the other side, emulators attempt to accurately implement the operation of all hardware components of usually a real system in software, completely with accurate timings, which makes it possible to run strange pieces of software that depend on correct timing or uses obsolete CPU instructions. It's recommended to run older versions of Windows in emulators such as PCem or 86box.

If the CPU speed will cause things to break, then how did I have chicago working on vbox? Nothing broke, even though i used wdpsl.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Microsoft Chicago build 58s hangs at bootscreen        Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 7:21 am 
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It depends on your hardware and the guest OS. The point is, as time goes by, the more likely it is for something to break due to CPU incompatibility. Most Windows 95 builds will already throw protection errors in hypervisors running even on hardware from a decade ago. And it's only gonna get worse.

Feel free to use what you want, but don't be surprised when you start running into issues and have to use weird hacks to get around them.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Microsoft Chicago build 58s hangs at bootscreen        Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 12:54 pm 
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That's why you use 16 mb of ram for windows 95.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Microsoft Chicago build 58s hangs at bootscreen        Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 12:55 pm 
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Ok, I am now on my pc.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Microsoft Chicago build 58s hangs at bootscreen        Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 1:17 pm 
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DVINTHEHOUSEMAN wrote:
That's why you use 16 mb of ram for windows 95.


RAM size has nothing to do with CPU speed... If the host CPU's clock speed is too high, Windows will throw the protection error (unless you apply the necessary fixes of course) regardless of memory size.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Microsoft Chicago build 58s hangs at bootscreen        Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 4:01 pm 
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SuriPolomareFan2003 wrote:
Use Virtual PC 2007!

Well, you people should know that OSes Windows 8 and newer cannot use VPC 2007.
And for DVINTHEHOUSEMAN, I know 86Box is slow. If dossetup doesn't work in 86Box, try installing Windows 3.1, load up your Chicago Disk, then run Setup. If that doesn't work, I don't know what to tell you.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Microsoft Chicago build 58s hangs at bootscreen        Posted: Sun May 28, 2017 4:31 pm 
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 PostPost subject: Re: Microsoft Chicago build 58s hangs at bootscreen        Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:37 pm 
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I could get it to work with fusion 8.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Microsoft Chicago build 58s hangs at bootscreen        Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 4:31 pm 
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Overdoze wrote:
It depends on your hardware and the guest OS. The point is, as time goes by, the more likely it is for something to break due to CPU incompatibility. Most Windows 95 builds will already throw protection errors in hypervisors running even on hardware from a decade ago. And it's only gonna get worse.

Feel free to use what you want, but don't be surprised when you start running into issues and have to use weird hacks to get around them.


Again, that's only going to be an issue when you run software with frequency related timing loops (see: ftp://ftp.brain.it/public/Driver/Micros ... s%2095.txt).

Your best bet is to actually disable using hardware assisted virtualization extensions in your hypervisor and try switching over to a binary translation based virtualization scheme instead. (Though, due to some CPU errata, certain features might end up being broken in HAV mode vs SW translation, such as Ryzen VME...)

It really does look like lately, there's a lot of shameless plugs for using 86box/PCem while reconfiguring another vendor's hypervisor might end up solving the problem in the first place.

DVINTHEHOUSEMAN wrote:
AlphaBeta wrote:
SuriPolomareFan2003 wrote:
Use Virtual PC 2007!

Again, it's not recommended to use older versions of Windows under hypervisors as things might break on newer CPUs. What a hypervisor does is that it translates privileged instructions into unprivileged ones, also CPU manufacturers might remove some obsolete or change the behavior of some instructions older operating systems used, which would lead to a crash. Hypervisors also often emulate unreal hardware that is primarily meant to make guest-host integration as best as possible, therefore it's the best for latest operating systems versions.

On the other side, emulators attempt to accurately implement the operation of all hardware components of usually a real system in software, completely with accurate timings, which makes it possible to run strange pieces of software that depend on correct timing or uses obsolete CPU instructions. It's recommended to run older versions of Windows in emulators such as PCem or 86box.

If the CPU speed will cause things to break, then how did I have chicago working on vbox? Nothing broke, even though i used wdpsl.


While this is true to an extent, emulators can choose whether or not to be timing accurate. Qemu, for example, is an emulator that isn't necessarily timing (or cache) accurate, but emulators/simulators from other vendors, such as Simics for example, might be. Timing accurate emulation works up to a certain point, but after you reach that critical point, it becomes infeasible to perform full scale system simulation at high performance with a synchronized guest->host clock as well.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Microsoft Chicago build 58s hangs at bootscreen        Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 4:38 pm 
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- Kenneth: On modern CPU's, older software is increasingly unlikely to work under virtualization, and that's a fact. I don't understand why you're so bothered by people suggesting a tool more appropriate for the task be used.
It's like if everyone used guns to poke holes into walls, then people came and said a drill would be a better tool for the purpose, and the gun users started complaining about how bad the drill users are for shamelessly plugging drills. :p

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 PostPost subject: Re: Microsoft Chicago build 58s hangs at bootscreen        Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 4:40 pm 
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I can assure you disabling HAV in say Virtual PC does absolutely nothing to fix CPU related issues. So you're still left with three options regardless:

a) Apply the appropriate fixes to the OS
b) Run your hypervisor of choice on an older machine with a CPU that doesn't cause these issues
c) Use an actual emulator

Feel free to pick whatever suits you best. Some of us are just reminding you that using actual supported hardware from that time period, or an emulator which emulates such hardware, makes most if not all problems go away without having to work around them.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Microsoft Chicago build 58s hangs at bootscreen        Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:01 pm 
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Kenneth wrote:
It really does look like lately, there's a lot of shameless plugs for using 86box/PCem while reconfiguring another vendor's hypervisor might end up solving the problem in the first place.


Of course, thanks to ever present staff bias here on BetaArchive. I had suggested LoneCrusader's patch to a user and was given ridiculous accusations, even going so far as "propagandist." Even within this thread there is this double-entendre suggestion that a certain emulator is "the" correct tool for the job, and usage of anything else should be looked down upon.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Microsoft Chicago build 58s hangs at bootscreen        Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:43 pm 
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To be clear, speaking on behalf of the administration here, BetaArchive does not endorse or formally support any emulator or virtualization solution. Everyone is free to use what they would like. Any intention otherwise is not the beliefs of the administration, but the belief of individuals.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Microsoft Chicago build 58s hangs at bootscreen        Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:31 pm 
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Kenneth wrote:
Overdoze wrote:
It depends on your hardware and the guest OS. The point is, as time goes by, the more likely it is for something to break due to CPU incompatibility. Most Windows 95 builds will already throw protection errors in hypervisors running even on hardware from a decade ago. And it's only gonna get worse.

Feel free to use what you want, but don't be surprised when you start running into issues and have to use weird hacks to get around them.


Again, that's only going to be an issue when you run software with frequency related timing loops (see: ftp://ftp.brain.it/public/Driver/Micros ... s%2095.txt).

Your best bet is to actually disable using hardware assisted virtualization extensions in your hypervisor and try switching over to a binary translation based virtualization scheme instead. (Though, due to some CPU errata, certain features might end up being broken in HAV mode vs SW translation, such as Ryzen VME...)

It really does look like lately, there's a lot of shameless plugs for using 86box/PCem while reconfiguring another vendor's hypervisor might end up solving the problem in the first place.

DVINTHEHOUSEMAN wrote:
AlphaBeta wrote:
SuriPolomareFan2003 wrote:
Use Virtual PC 2007!

Again, it's not recommended to use older versions of Windows under hypervisors as things might break on newer CPUs. What a hypervisor does is that it translates privileged instructions into unprivileged ones, also CPU manufacturers might remove some obsolete or change the behavior of some instructions older operating systems used, which would lead to a crash. Hypervisors also often emulate unreal hardware that is primarily meant to make guest-host integration as best as possible, therefore it's the best for latest operating systems versions.

On the other side, emulators attempt to accurately implement the operation of all hardware components of usually a real system in software, completely with accurate timings, which makes it possible to run strange pieces of software that depend on correct timing or uses obsolete CPU instructions. It's recommended to run older versions of Windows in emulators such as PCem or 86box.

If the CPU speed will cause things to break, then how did I have chicago working on vbox? Nothing broke, even though i used wdpsl.


While this is true to an extent, emulators can choose whether or not to be timing accurate. Qemu, for example, is an emulator that isn't necessarily timing (or cache) accurate, but emulators/simulators from other vendors, such as Simics for example, might be. Timing accurate emulation works up to a certain point, but after you reach that critical point, it becomes infeasible to perform full scale system simulation at high performance with a synchronized guest->host clock as well.

The reason why it works on my other laptop is because I have an Intel processor. the one I am on now has an AMD processor

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 PostPost subject: Re: Microsoft Chicago build 58s hangs at bootscreen        Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 6:47 am 
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Tutorial How To Fix the Chicago build 58s KRNL386 error in VBox
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=34041


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 PostPost subject: Re: Microsoft Chicago build 58s hangs at bootscreen        Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:49 pm 
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Just for information to prove that it works on 86box as well without patching/fixing krnl386.exe
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 PostPost subject: Re: Microsoft Chicago build 58s hangs at bootscreen        Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:32 pm 
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Battler wrote:
- WindowsCollector2000: Or your host hardware might not be as modern as his. On more modern host CPU's, even Windows 3.1 has problems under virtualization, let alone something as unstable as Chicago 58s.


Even Windows 98 and ME wouldn't install under both Virtualbox and VMware on my friend's Ryzen 7 PC...

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 PostPost subject: Re: Microsoft Chicago build 58s hangs at bootscreen        Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:44 pm 
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DVINTHEHOUSEMAN wrote:
That's why you use 16 mb of ram for windows 95.

I'll repeat it too: it's NOT a RAM issue. It's a CPU speed issue. The protection error is caused by the fact the CPU you're running the guest OS on is so fast that the OS literally can't keep up with

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Last edited by Zacchi4k on Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Microsoft Chicago build 58s hangs at bootscreen        Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:49 pm 
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DVINTHEHOUSEMAN wrote:
The reason why it works on my other laptop is because I have an Intel processor. the one I am on now has an AMD processor

No, it's because the CPU in your laptop is slower than the one in your other PC, and Chicago can keep up with it. It's not an Intel/AMD issue. We're not talking about Mac OS X

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 PostPost subject: Re: Microsoft Chicago build 58s hangs at bootscreen        Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:56 pm 
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DVINTHEHOUSEMAN wrote:
AlphaBeta wrote:
Post the revision hash (the hexadecimal digits in square brackets in the titlebar) and your config.

The hexadecimal digits? What the heck are those?
Which config? CONFIG.SYS?


These are the hexadecimal digits:
Image

(Hexadecimal numbers are base 16 numbers represented with numbers from 0 to 9 and letters from A to F)


AlphaBeta's referring to Pacem/86Box's config: emulated motherboard, emulated CPU, emulated RAM and so on.

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