Windows 1.0 Premiere Edition

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DeFacto

Windows 1.0 Premiere Edition

Post by DeFacto »

Seeing that this was removed from the FTP recently, I believe we deserve to know why and to discuss the matter.

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Re: Windows 1.0 Premiere Edition

Post by ViennaXP »

I join the queue. I don't really know what was wrong with it
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Re: Windows 1.0 Premiere Edition

Post by mrpijey »

The problem with it is that several sources has given doubts about its authenticity based on certain facts:
  • Microsoft developers stated that the entire memory management was rewritten between Premiere Edition and Windows 1.01, yet the Premiere Edition kernel is codewise identical to 1.01. Even the smallest code change would indicate that this version was different, but nothing is changed between this PE and 1.01 despite developers claims.
  • The original version provided to BA had WRITE.DAT (a file meant for Write) included, but the leaker stated it was a "mistake" and that Write was there only as an experiment. Write is not referenced in the PE setup either. It was later removed in a re-upload, but the fact that it was tampered with from the start raises questions.
  • The leaker (which will stay unnamed) has a questionable past of providing fake material, which added to the other info raises the question of this releases authenticity.
So until we can have some definitive proof that this is really PE then the release will be flagged as questionable and not be provided by BA. There has been doubts about this versions legitimacy since its release.
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Re: Windows 1.0 Premiere Edition

Post by ahoyer »

Despite it's potential illegitimacy should your curiosity tingle you can always locate this package on WinWorld. We have seen this claim challenged before

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Re: Windows 1.0 Premiere Edition

Post by jagotu »

Just my honest opinion:

I have a strong feeling this is not the way it should be done. What about next time you have strong doubts about legitimacy of something, we first discuss it and then if there are no valid complaints remove it? This way, it feels like "I think this and deal with it." You say you depend on users to show you something is not legitimate, but when YOU think it's not you just remove it. I know you are the FTP admin and no one has control over you, but you shouldn't behave like it's your private FTP. Because otherwise, it soon might be...

Your points are probably valid and it's perfectly possible it's a simple version change, but you weren't telling us in the first place. If nobody asked, we might never get to know what has lead you to the removal...

tl;dr What about next time you want to remove something, we discuss it first?
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Re: Windows 1.0 Premiere Edition

Post by jagotu »

EDIT: I don't know if mrpijey removed his post or my net is bugged, but this is an answer to his post.

No, I didn't mean to discuss it with me. I thought more in terms of making a thread or something like that.

You're the one who's making the final decision. That's true, and probably always will be. I'm just trying to nicely ask you if you could take more into account what the users have to say. (If it looked more like a rant, sorry, it was more of a suggestion. Again, you're the one who makes the final decision.)

I'm not trying to challenge your decision about PE. I have no way of checking it myself now, and you are probably right. I just think others might have something to say.
Offtopic Comment
In the end, it's probably all due to my weird fetish to try to help others. When I feel like somebody could do something better, I just can't help myself. Even though sometimes it's against their will...
Last edited by jagotu on Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Windows 1.0 Premiere Edition

Post by mrpijey »

Edit: Chose to remake the reply to more properly reflect my opinions about jagotu's answer...
jagotu wrote:Just my honest opinion:

I have a strong feeling this is not the way it should be done. What about next time you have strong doubts about legitimacy of something, we first discuss it and then if there are no valid complaints remove it?
It's not _I_ that have strong doubts about this. It's a lot of people, some of which has presented their findings, and some I've read on other sources not related to BA. You think you know everything that happens on BA? You do realise that a lot of people keep in touch with me and update me with info, info that I later present to the public, like in this case? I don't need to discuss and validate every decision I make with the entire forum. But perhaps you meant that I need to discuss things with you before I make a decision, because it feels like you do... since you think I make all decisions based on my own opinions and no one elses...

jagotu wrote:This way, it feels like "I think this and deal with it." You say you depend on users to show you something is not legitimate, but when YOU think it's not you just remove it. I know you are the FTP admin and no one has control over you, but you shouldn't behave like it's your private FTP. Because otherwise, it soon might be...
Yes I am the FTP admin, I am also the only one (apart from Andy of course) that can add or remove a release on this site. This means that no one can make a decision on if something should be added or removed as this decision lies with me and only me. But as I mentioned before, a lot of info passes my table before I make a decision, info you are not aware of and in some cases info you should not be aware of. I do depend on the users for proper info, because it's the users that tell me this PE release is suspicious, and it's them that gave me the arguments you read. So you see, it's not only my opinion... it's however my decision in the end. If you had any questions about a release you would have voiced it as well, and I bet you wouldn't involve every other member before letting me make a decision.
jagotu wrote:Your points are probably valid and it's perfectly possible it's a simple version change, but you weren't telling us in the first place. If nobody asked, we might never get to know what has lead you to the removal...
Who are "we"? You? Everyone on this forum? Or only the VIP members? Who? Do I need to ask everyone on BA before I make a decision to add or remove stuff from the FTP? I think not. And you just read the reasons why it was removed... I was planning making a post about the removal but DeFacto beat me to it by posting the question so I answered it instead. But I definately don't need to ask permission to remove it. If I want I can close the FTP and put all of the files into the trashcan and hit empty if I want. Sure it would be stupid but I don't need to ask permission for that either.

tl;dr What about next time you want to remove something, we discuss it first?[/quote]
No, that will not happen unless I am not fully convinced that something is legitimate or not. But I got a list of stuff I want to remove from the FTP, perhaps I should ask your permission first?

Addition: Sorry about the removal of the previous post, I wanted to remake it to address your specific concerns...
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Re: Windows 1.0 Premiere Edition

Post by mrpijey »

jagotu wrote:No, I didn't mean to discuss it with me. I thought more in terms of making a thread or something like that.

You're the one who's making the final decision. That's true, and probably always will be. I'm just trying to nicely ask you if you could take more into account what the users have to say. (If it looked more like a rant, sorry, it was more of a suggestion. Again, you're the one who makes the final decision.)

I'm not trying to challenge your decision about PE. I have no way of checking it myself now, and you are probably right. I just think others might have something to say.
Offtopic Comment
In the end, it's probably all due to my weird fetish to try to help others. When I feel like somebody could do something better, I just can't help myself. Even though sometimes it's against their will...
Well as I said, when I need specific help with deciding something I am not late to ask the members about it, but I don't do it with every decision I make. In this case I simply didn't feel it was warranted because the whole existance of this release has been in question since it popped up, it hasn't been a release where there's been compelling evidence that it IS in fact true, rather the opposite. A member of questionable reputation for putting out fakes leak it without any proof, and then more info comes out like the lack of development between two critical versions etc... to me it's more clear cut than questionable and thus I didn't need it decided by the community. But fine, you got the chance here to discuss it. Give me proof that it's geniune and I will put it back. I don't delete releases, and I keep all the fakes on a separate drive for reference. So I still got it, and so does the rest of the Internet by now as well. So it's an easy task to put it back.

And if anyone else has something to say then go ahead... because I delete something doesn't mean it's not up for debate, but I can't sit and wait while the community argue every decision to delete something.

Addition: And if you think the community hasn't discussed PE...

http://www.betaarchive.com/forum/viewto ... =6&t=29064

and some more info

http://technologizer.com/2010/03/08/the ... windows/2/
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Re: Windows 1.0 Premiere Edition

Post by zacb27 »

As there are facts that make this version look fake, I think mrpijey did the right thing. There were clearly no facts about this build being legit or valid though there were confirmations about it being fake / altered.
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Re: Windows 1.0 Premiere Edition

Post by jagotu »

Well, this edit nicely broke the post flow, but then let me answer your last post EDIT: The one before.

First, I'm not a selfish person. I feel I should have the same right to discuss with you as everyone else. No "I want to be a co-admin" or something like that intended. It was not about me getting more rights "VIP".

Then, exactly as you have said, I have no way to know who you discussed with etc. But I (now, I say me) am interested in which stuff is currently "being examined", maybe to give a helping hand or opinion. And maybe others also are...

As you may have noticed, when I felt something wasn't legitimate, I made further research (including getting files from other builds) and then voiced it in a thread, so that everyone can see what I don't like.

By we, I mentioned those who care. There are lots of people who roll eyes when we talk about legitimacy. There are lots of people who don't care as long as they have the latest build running. But there are people who DO care, DO wanna know, DO want to share opinion. And these deserve a chance to know, don't they? :) (BTW. I'm not even a VIP...)

If you were about to make a topic but DeFacto was faster, then I'm sorry about that thing.

Please, don't take it to absurdisms. You don't need my permission for anything, and it's right that way. I just asked you to TAKE INTO ACCOUNT what somebody has to say.

EDIT: thanks for the links, I'll make sure to check them. And as I said, I can't say anything about it now (out of country). My whole point was to provide if it won't be better to have this in the opposite direction, e.g. first a thread like this and then the removal.

EDIT2: I checked the links and all I see are discussion about what it was, but nothing about whether the one we have is legit.
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Re: Windows 1.0 Premiere Edition

Post by mrpijey »

jagotu wrote:Well, this edit nicely broke the post flow, but then let me answer your last post EDIT: The one before.
Yeah, sorry about that, you answered before I could delete the post.
jagotu wrote:First, I'm not a selfish person. I feel I should have the same right to discuss with you as everyone else. No "I want to be a co-admin" or something like that intended. It was not about me getting more rights "VIP".
Nor did I intend it as such, and of course you got the same right to discuss it with me as everyone else.
jagotu wrote:Then, exactly as you have said, I have no way to know who you discussed with etc. But I (now, I say me) am interested in which stuff is currently "being examined", maybe to give a helping hand or opinion. And maybe others also are...
Well, i got tons of stuff "being examined", if you want to help I am sure we can come to an arrangement. Others have tried, only one person has delivered on his promise (thanks WinPC! :) ). PM me about it and we'll see what you can do.
jagotu wrote:As you may have noticed, when I felt something wasn't legitimate, I made further research (including getting files from other builds) and then voiced it in a thread, so that everyone can see what I don't like.
Yeah, but the difference is that you don't have the option to make the decision to remove anything here, and even if you voiced stuff in a thread doesn't mean that everyone immediately gets updated on all the facts. In the end YOU have to be convinced and no one else. By the means of a public post, or other sources. In this case _I_ was convinced by multiple sources and some logical reasoning.
jagotu wrote:By we, I mentioned those who care. There are lots of people who roll eyes when we talk about legitimacy. There are lots of people who don't care as long as they have the latest build running.
As I've recently noticed... :).
jagotu wrote:But there are people who DO care, DO wanna know, DO want to share opinion. And these deserve a chance to know, don't they? :) (BTW. I'm not even a VIP...)
Of course, and you got the chance. Now we have a thread about Windows 1.0 PE, and you got the facts and info presented so go ahead, voice your opinion. No one will stop you :).
jagotu wrote:If you were about to make a topic but DeFacto was faster, then I'm sorry about that thing.
No worries, some members are quick in response, and in this case I had some other things that jumped up on front of me while doing the post (some of which were even info I was about to put in).
jagotu wrote:Please, don't take it to absurdisms. You don't need my permission for anything, and it's right that way. I just asked you to TAKE INTO ACCOUNT what somebody has to say.
I always do, but I don't always have to ask everyones opinions before making a decision. I only do that when I am not fully convinced about something or if I am unsure about how to progress. This was not such a moment.
jagotu wrote:EDIT: thanks for the links, I'll make sure to check them. And as I said, I can't say anything about it now (out of country). My whole point was to provide if it won't be better to have this in the opposite direction, e.g. first a thread like this and then the removal.
That won't happen because it would be too cumbersome, and too much argumentation every time something has to be deleted or changed. In some rare cases people will voice an opinion about a removal and then I can re-evaluate the situation, otherwise the current system has worked just fine. But if you follow the FTP changelog and voice an opinion everytime I make a change I am sure I can *try* to answer it all :). Just don't stress it to the limit... I have only so much time to deal with BA and I am not going to waste it by pointless debates, so make it good :). But always assume that whenever I make a decision about an important build (such as PE) I do it for a good reason, and not because _I_ think it's fake.
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Re: Windows 1.0 Premiere Edition

Post by WinPC »

Well, originally, this all started when I found information on WinWorld where SomeGuy claimed that he had actually examined the files themselves, and found that only the version numbers and strings were different, even when the Microsoft developers themselves had confirmed that there had been a major rewrite of the memory management routine between Windows Premiere Edition and Windows 1.01.

Upon seeing this, I sent it to Battler, given his interest in these sorts of debates, and upon logging back in, I see that he has finally answered my message, and he agreed with me that it could certainly be fake.

Really, to be honest, I have seen quite a bit of doubt regarding this release for quite a while now, even as far back as several years ago when it had only just been released onto the Internet. However, only now do we actually have any verifiable evidence for it being fake.

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Re: Windows 1.0 Premiere Edition

Post by zacb27 »

mrpijey wrote:Who are "we"? You? Everyone on this forum? Or only the VIP members? Who? Do I need to ask everyone on BA before I make a decision to add or remove stuff from the FTP? I think not. And you just read the reasons why it was removed... I was planning making a post about the removal but DeFacto beat me to it by posting the question so I answered it instead. But I definately don't need to ask permission to remove it. If I want I can close the FTP and put all of the files into the trashcan and hit empty if I want. Sure it would be stupid but I don't need to ask permission for that either.
You just qualified yourself for an administrator that has no idea how user feedback works and has a very weird mind, you could basically delete everything that would be nice for many collectors and enthusiastic people just because you wanted, this is the douche-est attitude everyone could ever have, putting that as a part of a mature reply is something unimagineable for me. We just want to share our point of views before actions are getting taken, sure, this assumption of yours may have been right, but not everyone is perfect, right? This was the point of JaGoTu, at least how I saw it, also, if this posts gets disapproved, I straightforward know who did that.
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Re: Windows 1.0 Premiere Edition

Post by djljktq_81 »

Sorry if I'm wrong, but I want to give an opinion. I think that it would be better to put some label "the closest copy to the original." And do not delete from the server. Later, if you can find the original, replace them. Because if you can not find the original, this version will be lost.
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Re: Windows 1.0 Premiere Edition

Post by Maxxyz »

Only Bill Gates knows answer on question: Is it Windows 1.00 Premiere Edition real or fake?
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Re: Windows 1.0 Premiere Edition

Post by djljktq_81 »

Maxxyz wrote:Only Bill Gates knows answer on question: Is it Windows 1.00 Premiere Edition real or fake?
I'm not sure. Interestingly Microsoft has its own museum Software?
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Re: Windows 1.0 Premiere Edition

Post by mrpijey »

djljktq_81 wrote:I think that it would be better to put some label "the closest copy to the original."
That only works if we really know how the original looks like or where it comes from. Since we don't your suggestion won't work. And it won't be lost, that release has been going around the planet since we got it already... We can't just sit and guess that "yeah, this *could* be real so let's keep it", we have to have some kind of proof that it's actually the real deal. And at the moment there's none.
djljktq_81 wrote:
Maxxyz wrote:Only Bill Gates knows answer on question: Is it Windows 1.00 Premiere Edition real or fake?
I'm not sure. Interestingly Microsoft has its own museum Software?
And the developers... Bill Gates didn't code that thing on his own entirely. Also, others saw the build at the press conference etc.

And no, Microsoft doesn't have a software museum. Nor does the absolute majority of the other software companies. Which is why it's even more important that we save and preserve the original software.
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Re: Windows 1.0 Premiere Edition

Post by AlphaBeta »

Maxxyz wrote:Only Bill Gates knows answer on question: Is it Windows 1.00 Premiere Edition real or fake?
It is. There was (maybe it's still there) a picture of its bootscreen on the Microsoft's FTP.
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Re: Windows 1.0 Premiere Edition

Post by jagotu »

AlphaBeta wrote:
Maxxyz wrote:Only Bill Gates knows answer on question: Is it Windows 1.00 Premiere Edition real or fake?
It is. There was (maybe it's still there) a picture of its bootscreen on the Microsoft's FTP.
Yes, I can confirm that. It was still there when I looked. Premiere edition definitely exists, there's no doubt about that. The thing you should ask is "Will we ever get a real copy?"
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Re: Windows 1.0 Premiere Edition

Post by jagotu »

Because I know some people don't believe this, I actually took time to find the picture on the MS FTP. Here it is with the full URL:
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ftp://ftp.microsoft.com/Services/Museum ... 003770.TIF
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Re: Windows 1.0 Premiere Edition

Post by mrpijey »

It's just too bad it's a publicity photo (edited) and not a real photo showing it running. So outside those that actually saw this thing running in real life there is still a small chance that the entire logo is fabricated as a publicity stunt, and not the real one. So we have any actual screenshots of the real PE running?
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Re: Windows 1.0 Premiere Edition

Post by Battler »

- mrpijey: Is it certain the photo is edited and not a real photo showing it running? Do we have any evidence to conclude either way?

Also, even if it is edited, chances are the logo itself is authentic, as it matches the logos of both the Beta and 1.01 in looks and layout.
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Re: Windows 1.0 Premiere Edition

Post by mrpijey »

Well, the only way I can tell is that the image is not skewed enough to represent a true image on that monitor. I have one of those monitors, and no way you can get a nicely aligned picture like that. And absolutely not in that kind of color either as the monitor is quite dark in color so it wouldn't be so bright, I've photographed enough running CRT monitors to know this. The bottom text for example is more or less per pixel aligned from the left to the right and that would be quite difficult on a glass surface that is no near flat. This is not some Sony Trinitron monitor with a perfectly flat glass surface, but an old CRT screen with a quite pronounced bent surface. Take a look at any old CRT and you'll see this.

And because the logo looks alike the beta and 1.0 doesn't mean it's authentic as the logo could be just a promotional one and not used in the "final" PE version, it's very easy to modify as the graphics is simple. Did they really call this version "Premiere Edition" when they showcased it, or was it only during dev? Was there really no 1.0? Or just "Microsoft Windows" and no version number? That's how I would name a brand new product anyway, no 1.0. But it's all just speculation, until we have the real binaries or true (and verified) screenshots we won't really know. So no, we don't have any evidence but at this point all we have is some info that the devs called it Premiere Edition, this promotional picture found at Microsoft FTP (modified promotional pictures are not uncommon, in fact they are very common) and a fake PE release. That's all. Is there any evidence that they actually named this "Premiere Edition" in the end and not just during the development?

I have just started to question all the "facts" we have about PE in the light of the binaries being fake and this "screenshot" being a promotional image. That's all. So if we have proper evidence of PE then it should be presented to collect the info we have on it.
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Re: Windows 1.0 Premiere Edition

Post by WinPC »

The only problem here is that I don't see why Microsoft would be showing off any boot screens (or other screenshots) that were less than authentic. If they wanted to show off a boot screen, then why would they show off a version that wasn't real to begin with?

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Re: Windows 1.0 Premiere Edition

Post by mrpijey »

I don't doubt the version is authentic as there are references to a Premiere Edition. But for promotional purposes it's not uncommon to make up or modify a stock image to say whatever they want it to say. But I am not saying it's fake, just that we really don't have anything saying it's real either. All we got here is a modified photo of a real monitor and pasted in bootlogo that says Premiere Edition.
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