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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:45 pm 
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You can run PowerPC versions of Linux on them, though why use a Mac for that when any old PC would do? :P There's loads of cool stuff you could try on here: OS 9, OS X Server 1.x, Rhapsody, OS X Developer Previews and Public Beta, OS X 10.0 to 10.5 (client and server editions)... ;)

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:15 am 
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Okay, well, this is weird. Today, my display (the one plugged into the VGA output) only displays a white background [kinda grayish] with a command prompt like line for text input. However, I couldn't insert any text. Then after a few startup routines, I saw the Mac OS starting up like usual with extensions loading at the bottom. I then plugged in the old DB-15 Apple RGB Display, and restarted, in which the loading process looked normal on the old display, and then reverted over to the big display after booting!

I found out that this gray background is actually the Open Firmware for the computer. I then typed in "Option + Command + O + F" in which I could insert commands before the Mac OS 9 could start up!

I also found that when booting from Mac OS X 10.3.9's Setup Disc, the apple logo would be present and show it loading. It would freeze [obviously from being incompatible from my computer], but the fact that it made the VGA the main display was kinda weird.

However, this isn't my delimma. While trying to boot from the Linux CD using BootX, the VGA display would display the Mac OS 9 desktop and lock up, while the DB-15 monitor would scribble text all over the monitor of Linux booting up! Because it cannot display 640x480 on the monitor, this makes the screen scrambled and I can't tell what it wants me to do! Is there anyway to block video output to the DB-15 connector and make the VGA PCI Card the main resource for video output? This may come handy when trying to install Linux, or even another operating system.

Thanks!
Troy

P.S. How in God's name do you input F8 on an Apple Keyboard II? There are no F8 keys, so I can't install Windows in Virtual PC! lol :P

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 10:47 am 
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Are you trying with a screen connected to the Radeon card and nothing connected to the integrated DB-15 connector? (as you seem to have screens connected to both?) It always seems to use the Radeon and ignore the built-in when you just have a screen connected to the Radeon. Note too that the integrated graphics is not very compatible with OS X 10.3 and later so you should always use the Radeon later.

If you are getting the Oepn Firmware screen without holding Cmd+Opt+O+F then you may need to reset the machine as sometimes they go weird like this - hold Cmd+Opt+P+R straight after powering it on and hold it until it chimes for a second time. It can be a good idea after installing new hardware to get rid of weirdness to unplug the machine, open it up, press and hold the red "Cuda" button on the motherboard for a few seconds, then put it back together and start up. I woul also recommend that you replace the battery on the motherboard if you haven't already, if it is dead, as this can lead to weirdness too.

OS X 10.3.9 is compatible with this Mac whatever Apple might try to tell you :P You can't boot directly from the CD though, you need to go into OS 9 run XPostFacto, and use that to boot from a Panther or Tiger CD.

As far as I know you can't press keys like F8 on the old shrunken keyboard models, you need to get an ADB Extended Keyboard (a very nice big and clicky keyboard) or a USB Pro Keyboard or later (all the recent USB models have a full selection of keys and work with the G3 if you have a USB card, although startup commands like Opt to boot OS 9 instead of X or Cmd+Opt+P+R won't work as the USB drivers for Macs that don't have integrated USB are not loaded until the OS has started). A USB keyboard from a PC should work for the purpose of pressing F8 though, or you might be able to use the on-screen keyboard (Apple > Key Caps I think if using OS 9, or tick the box in System Preferences > International on OS X)

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:36 pm 
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troyoda1990 wrote:
Okay, well, this is weird. Today, my display (the one plugged into the VGA output) only displays a white background [kinda grayish] with a command prompt like line for text input. However, I couldn't insert any text. Then after a few startup routines, I saw the Mac OS starting up like usual with extensions loading at the bottom. I then plugged in the old DB-15 Apple RGB Display, and restarted, in which the loading process looked normal on the old display, and then reverted over to the big display after booting!

I found out that this gray background is actually the Open Firmware for the computer. I then typed in "Option + Command + O + F" in which I could insert commands before the Mac OS 9 could start up!

I also found that when booting from Mac OS X 10.3.9's Setup Disc, the apple logo would be present and show it loading. It would freeze [obviously from being incompatible from my computer], but the fact that it made the VGA the main display was kinda weird.

However, this isn't my delimma. While trying to boot from the Linux CD using BootX, the VGA display would display the Mac OS 9 desktop and lock up, while the DB-15 monitor would scribble text all over the monitor of Linux booting up! Because it cannot display 640x480 on the monitor, this makes the screen scrambled and I can't tell what it wants me to do! Is there anyway to block video output to the DB-15 connector and make the VGA PCI Card the main resource for video output? This may come handy when trying to install Linux, or even another operating system.

Thanks!
Troy

P.S. How in God's name do you input F8 on an Apple Keyboard II? There are no F8 keys, so I can't install Windows in Virtual PC! lol :P
Well, the keyboard that came with my Performa back in 94 has F8. Its an Apple Extended Keyboard II, is that what you have?

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:31 pm 
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Do keep in mind that all of my Macintosh Hardware is circa 1992 as that's when my father bought the Macintosh LCII. Let me just tell you as a recap of what I'm running on:

    PowerPC G3 Macintosh Beige (266 Mhz) Rev. B
    RAM: 320 MB
    HD: 40 GB 7,200 RPM IBM DeathStar (lol)
    OS: MacOS 9.2.2
    Firmware Ver: 2.0.something
    Mouse: ADB Mouse [First Edition, block type, not rounded one]
    Keyboard: Apple Keyboard II [with number pad, non-t arrow layout]
    Graphics Card (Built-in): ATI Rage Pro 3D?
    Graphics Card (PCI): ATI Radeon 7000 with VGA, DVI, and RCA Video Out
    Sound Personality Card: Wings [standard audio and microphone outputs]
    VGA Monitor: 15" HP Pavilion M50 Display [connected VGA card]
    DB-15 Monitor: 12" Apple RGB Color Display [unplugged]
    NOTHING IS CONNECTED TO THE DB-15 PORT!
    Standard AC Power Cord
    Standard Ethernet Cord plugged into built-in Ethernet.


I found out the Ethernet Card is a Falleron? Card accepting 10/100 speeds for ethernet. I found some drivers, but they still don't seem to be accepting my internet connection.

I have zapped the CUDA button a few times before [which resets the time and stuff], and I will zap the PRAM again. It's just weird that I can't see anything on my main VGA monitor until the drivers are loaded in Mac OS 9.

Startup Sequence:
1. Macintosh Sound plays as hard drive spins up and drives are connected.
2. Macintosh Self Test [no display input is available from any video connection.]
3. Both displays show images.
A. DB-15: Displays normal Mac OS 9 happy face, gray screen, and the Jetsons Startup Screen I have built-in. After this, BootX appears asking if I want to start the computer up in Linux mode or continue loading Mac OS. I push Mac OS, or let it automattically go after a few seconds.
B. VGA: Display Open Firmware screen, gray with the command input. This is where I can push Command Option O F to insert any commands. Or I let it sit there until Mac OS starts loading extensions.
4. MacOS 9 begins loading extensions, in which the main display [the VGA] displays the icons at the bottom, along with the Googly Eyes extension I have installed.
5. The screen resolution changes to the default 800x600 I have set up in the Monitors control panel as the final extensions load.
6. The main desktop appears.
A. DB-15: Displays only the background, as it considered a second display for doing work in.
B. VGA: Displays the main content, with desktop icons, picture background, control strip, and menu bar.

7. Starting BootX: The DB-15 screen takes control when starting up Linux commands. Fuzzy the text is due to not being able to display a resolution of 640x480. This could be an issue when installing other operating systems, including Mac OS X.
The VGA screen has a static image of the Desktop before it shut down, restarted, and began Linux mode. It's as if it paused the screen and made the VGA card inactive.

Keep in note, that while the DB-15 screen is unplugged, the same procedures occur for the VGA monitor. This is tempermental for me, as I don't know what's going on during the Boot Process of Mac OS 9.

I hope this answered a few questions!
Troy

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:18 pm 
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Weird, I've never heard of one of these trying to use the integrated video even when nothing is connected to it :S

Apparently the folloeing command in Open Firmware (press Cmd+Opt+O+F as you power on the machine and wait for the command prompt, I wouldn't do it from this strange instance of the prompt that you are getting on the second screen while it's actually booting) will disable the onboard video so you may want to try this, but I haven't tested it, it's not my fault if it screws up your system completely, and I don't know the command for re-enabling it! :P -

Code:
setenv pci-probe-list fffbffff


Press enter afterwards, then type "boot" (without the quotes) and press enter again.


Presumably there were different options for keyboards back then when buying a new Mac, the Apple Extended Keyboard I/II was the big clicky one with a full range of keys while the Apple Keyboard I/II was a small one with just the essentials. Anyway, a PC USB keyboard or the on-screen keyboard should be fine for the purpose of installing Windows in VPC.

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 4:38 am 
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Didn't work. :?

I even looked up a few google searches and Apple Tech Notes and did a few other commands. It gave me the "ok" meaning it was a true command [no errors], but other types of commands gave me errors, so the one you gave me, along with other numbers [besides fffbffff] worked. But it still doesn't default the main display to the VGA Card.

Also, Apple Key Caps doesn't display any of the F1 keys. It only displays the keys with my keyboard. I plan on selling a few things on eBay really soon, so I'll get the money to buy a new ADB keyboard (hell, maybe even upgrade to the B&W G3 or even an iMac; I've ALWAYS wanted an original iMac or the iMac DV). But that idea is for another day. ;)

Finally, I plan on downloading one of the Developer Previews or a version of Mac OS X that will work with this system. I'm really thinking the display issue is a hardware issue and not a software issue. I just find it interesting that right when it starts displaying the extensions at the bottom of the screen, it begins showing content on the main VGA monitor. It's weird!

300 Posts! :)
I wish I posted on here more like I used to back in the good old days...

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:27 pm 
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troyoda1990 wrote:
Also, Apple Key Caps doesn't display any of the F1 keys. It only displays the keys with my keyboard. I plan on selling a few things on eBay really soon, so I'll get the money to buy a new ADB keyboard (hell, maybe even upgrade to the B&W G3 or even an iMac; I've ALWAYS wanted an original iMac or the iMac DV). But that idea is for another day. ;).

You could get an old ADB keyboard for nothing/next to nothing nowadays - check out your local Freecycle group if you haven't already ;) iMac G3s are also pretty common on Freecycle, at least where I live - I'd get one but would probably be told I have too many computers already! ;) As I said though, a PC keyboard or one of the much nicer looking later (USB) Mac keyboards will work fine too (just not for the boot commands), even the latest ultra-thin works :)


troyoda1990 wrote:
Finally, I plan on downloading one of the Developer Previews or a version of Mac OS X that will work with this system.

Cool, I've never tried them but they'd be interesting to see :) I think they're all on the FTP server - DP1 and 2 were Platinum-themed, 3 and 4 had Aqua (although pretty primitive at that stage), Public Beta was similar to DP4 and still had the Apple menu in the centre of the menu bar. I'd recommend Tiger if you want an OS X for actual use - don't go with 10.0-10.2, they are slow and very unsupported nowadays, 10.0/10.1 don't even have as much up to date software as OS 9 as most people skipped them altogether and they are almost betas as well.


troyoda1990 wrote:
I'm really thinking the display issue is a hardware issue and not a software issue. I just find it interesting that right when it starts displaying the extensions at the bottom of the screen, it begins showing content on the main VGA monitor. It's weird!

It is weird, yes, as I have pretty much the same graphics card and haven't encountered this (unless there is some weirdness coming from the fact that it is a converted PC card). The Beige G3 is quite a weird machines, yo can get a lot of oddness with them - if you want an easier to handle machine, a G4 Sawtooth is a good choice as they're cheap nowadays but run everything up to and including Leopard with very little hassle as well as having all the modern Mac features like AGP graphics (for Quartz Extreme), Target Disk etc that the older ones lack.

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:54 pm 
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troyoda1990 wrote:
Didn't work. :?

I even looked up a few google searches and Apple Tech Notes and did a few other commands. It gave me the "ok" meaning it was a true command [no errors], but other types of commands gave me errors, so the one you gave me, along with other numbers [besides fffbffff] worked. But it still doesn't default the main display to the VGA Card.

Also, Apple Key Caps doesn't display any of the F1 keys. It only displays the keys with my keyboard. I plan on selling a few things on eBay really soon, so I'll get the money to buy a new ADB keyboard (hell, maybe even upgrade to the B&W G3 or even an iMac; I've ALWAYS wanted an original iMac or the iMac DV). But that idea is for another day. ;)

Finally, I plan on downloading one of the Developer Previews or a version of Mac OS X that will work with this system. I'm really thinking the display issue is a hardware issue and not a software issue. I just find it interesting that right when it starts displaying the extensions at the bottom of the screen, it begins showing content on the main VGA monitor. It's weird!

300 Posts! :)
I wish I posted on here more like I used to back in the good old days...


If you had some extra cash, and wanted to buy a mac, I've got an LC 575 that I don't use :P
and

I saw this ad on LowEndMac
http://stn2.headgap.com/resale/FMPro?-d ... t.htm&-new
Its for $20 ADB keyboards, new :P

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 12:59 am 
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Vista Ultimate R2,
I thought you were like 20... :S

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 1:07 am 
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Yeh, I'm 22, but my mum still complains if I bring too much of what she sees as junk into the house! ;) (I live at home)

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 1:55 am 
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Vista Ultimate R2 wrote:
Yeh, I'm 22, but my mum still complains if I bring too much of what she sees as junk into the house! ;) (I live at home)
ah. Are you going to college?

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:18 pm 
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I've been :) Finished last year (in the UK most people go to university from 18-21, not sure about elsewhere), been working for an IT company in London since last November :) Lots of people (at least in the UK) live with their parents for a while after they leave college and get a job, it's too expensive here to get your own place! (plus I prefer living at home apart from not being able to get lots of iMacs and things like that!)

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 5:55 pm 
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okay so I booted up my g3 with dp2 cd and it showed the happy mac and the spining rainbow cursor of death, and that was on my main VGA monitor! :). However it did some loading off the cd, and then it randomly crashed and turned off the computer! I tried again, booting from OS 9 and restarting with the setup program and again, crashed.

I find the whole thing funny really. LOL. I'll try another DP but who knows why it's doing this?

Wow I feel young...I'm only 18 and a half! :P And I start college at the University of Michigan next week!

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 6:24 pm 
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Okay, double post whatever. lol. So I unplugged my VGA monitor and removed the card, and then inserted the DB-15 Apple Screen and vola, it worked. Before, I did a "text" boot to see what exactly was going on when setup started up. It connected most of the devices and began procedures and found the C O L O R monitor (lol) and even named off my devices, such as the CD-RW Drive. But then it started to say "Couldn't connect to the Network. Couldn't connect to the Video Network. Couldn't find the Mouse Connector (although it was plugged in)." And it would retry one more time. Then it would shut down single-user mode, all services, and then finally, CPU Halt and it turned off.

Then with the DB-15, the computer loaded setup just fine, in which I could get to the "Installation" part of DP2 Setup. Here, it began extracting all of the files from the setup, but then, all of a sudden, it said "Operation could not occur." Because I didn't have the rights or access to do so. 8-) So then I restart, and then I get a "Welcome to Mac OS X Developer Preview 2" Screen, in which is loads and boots, but it doesn't get to the desktop after booting (probably because the Desktop and Base files weren't loaded from not existing). So I restarted, and now I'm in OS 9.2.2 and looking to see if I can extract the files myself and install it manually.

Thus, it's my video card that is causing all of this. Probably because it's flashed, it will only work with certain operating systems. I remember the paper said that only OS 9, OS X 10.2, 10.3, 10.4, and 10.5 were supported, so that's why the other Operating Systems can't work properly. If I'm seriously enough into using Linux or an unsupported OS, I will buy one of those Apple Displays you suggested with the DB-15 connector, but it's still dumb I have to cough up more money to install an operating system that isn't even considered "usable."

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 7:08 pm 
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Seems odd, I would expect the video card to work the same as the Mac Edition cards if done properly as it should have the same firmware as the Mac cards loaded into it. Note that the integrated video on these machines is not very good so you will only get limited performance if you do choose to use it.

What happens if you start the installation from OS 9, does it let you do this or is it like the released versions of OS X where it just prompts you to restart from the CD if you run the installation program from within OS 9?


troyoda1990 wrote:
Wow I feel young...I'm only 18 and a half! :P And I start college at the University of Michigan next week!

Hehe, you make me feel old saying that! :P Hope you have a good time at college :)

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 7:32 pm 
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Vista Ultimate R2 wrote:
What happens if you start the installation from OS 9, does it let you do this or is it like the released versions of OS X where it just prompts you to restart from the CD if you run the installation program from within OS 9?

Well, this G3 won't boot from the CD Drive with OS 9 Installation Disc. NO CLUE WHY! lol. However, when running OS X DP2, it prompted me to restart.

Right now, I just installed Mac OS X 10.3 Panther with XPostFacto 4. And it booted with the VGA monitor just fine. This is because ATI Radeon 7000 is compatible with OS X and XPostFacto. :) So far so good!

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 8:27 pm 
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And...my hard drive has died. It no longer reads from the mac os x partition. This has happened before with my Windows PC. Very upset. Maybe it just needs to cool down? I may need to format the partition again. :(

Sent from my iPod touch.

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:06 pm 
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troyoda1990 wrote:
Well, this G3 won't boot from the CD Drive with OS 9 Installation Disc. NO CLUE WHY!

Do you not have OS 9 installed anywhere then? Are you using an Apple CD drive? (some PC ones will boot ok, some not) You did install Panther into the first partition on the drive (which must be set as the master drive) and the partition is less than 8 GB?

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:40 am 
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okay that partition with os 9 is fine. And sometimes it will boot just fine. And I will need to format the os x partition to less than 8 GB although it was fine with 36GB until now. Lol

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:40 pm 
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Yes, I think it will sometimes let you install to a partition greater than 8 GB but as soon as any system files go outside of the first 8 GB (eg if you install an OS update) then it will not be able to read those files when booting and so may not work, depending if those files are critical. It is a bit weird but that's the way it is with these old Macs...

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:22 pm 
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Okay, I gave up. It boots from OS9 just fine, but it won't let me do anything to the hard drive to fix the partition. Every time it wants to access the "MacOSX" partition it makes this "three-click" sound that locks up the computer for a minute. I will have to get a startup disk (since booting from the OS9 CD is SOL for me) and format either the partition when I can, or simply format the entire hard drive, which is one thing I don't want to do due to numerous system and application files being on the disk.

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:45 pm 
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Have you tried using the original Apple CD drive that came with the machine to boot from the 9 CD though?

If it's clicking you maybe need a new hard drive...

Don't forget that you can always use a USB memory stick to take any files off it before you reformat it or replace the hard drive, any normal FAT-formatted one will work.

Don't give up! :)

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Vista Ultimate R2 wrote:
Have you tried using the original Apple CD drive that came with the machine to boot from the 9 CD though?

If it's clicking you maybe need a new hard drive...

Don't forget that you can always use a USB memory stick to take any files off it before you reformat it or replace the hard drive, any normal FAT-formatted one will work.

Don't give up! :)
1. I don't own this Power Mac G3...so...lol.
2. That's always a possibility for being a "DeskStar" hard drive. But most errors are due to software related issues, which is OS X being beyond the 8GB limit. When I tried installing the OS 10.3.9 update, it probably did just that! This has happened before when I was using Windows 2000 and my Pavilion, I thought the hard drive had died completely, but I was wrong!

3. I still don't have a USB card in the G3. I have backed up my files via internet and Zip Drive sources.

4. I'm taking a break for now. :)

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Since January 2005, I've been in the Operating Systems Prototype Community. I've enjoyed learning more these past four years about the development of the Windows and Macintosh operating systems, as well as learning of new user-based projects that optimize system performance.


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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:01 pm 
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troyoda1990 wrote:
I don't own this Power Mac G3...so...lol.

I thought you said you'd bought it from eBay? :S


troyoda1990 wrote:
This has happened before when I was using Windows 2000 and my Pavilion, I thought the hard drive had died completely, but I was wrong!

If that was with the same hard drive it sounds like it's dying then, the 8 GB limit is only feature of the Beige G3 (and early iMac G3s), not the hard drive itself.

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