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 PostPost subject: Stop Stealing...        Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:08 pm 
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As a recent hire for a developer for atheme.org, and a longtime FOSS developer, I must ask, what's the constant obsession with stealing Microsoft's work and claiming it as your own?

Is Resource editor your favorite application? Does Internet Explorer [censored] you off that much? Or are you too scared, or don't have enough knowledge to actually hack up Linux or BSD?

I often wonder why there's millions of (illegal) builds of Windows floating around the internet made by newbie users who have too much time on their hands. You're not making anything anyone uses, or anything anybody cares about, so why bother? It's really not a challenge to use a resource editor, remove programs, or slipstream into windows setup.

A few things to keep in mind:

* You're not programming anything.
* You're not doing anything worthwile.
* You're doing something illegal.
* You're ripping off someone's work and voliating license agreements.
* You seem to have this attitude that Microsoft is bad by saying "[censored] Microsoft" and spelling it M$ and Microsoft.

So my question is: why do people do this? Or did I just answer myself?

Mirrored on http://people.atheme.org/~zimmy/ for lack of content on that page.


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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:36 pm 
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whats your problem dude? if people want to risk breaking the law to modify microsoft code then thats their business, no ones making you download anything, to answer your question, so if you bought a car you would be ok with the the car company telling you what can and cant do with your car? because thats what microsoft are doing with licenceing/EULA bullshit.


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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 12:22 am 
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betaluva wrote:
whats your problem dude? if people want to risk breaking the law to modify microsoft code then thats their business, no ones making you download anything, to answer your question, so if you bought a car you would be ok with the the car company telling you what can and cant do with your car? because thats what microsoft are doing with licenceing/EULA [censored].


No, "betaluva", you didn't answer my question. You just put out some random crap that it's their own business. Sure it's their own business, but I'd like some reasons on why they do it.

And as per a car company licensing a car, well, that just doesn't work. A car just can't be licensed, it's physical matter that is passed down to you for you to work with and tinker with however you like. However, as in my car, I have the OnStar system, If I attempted to cheat that to get free service, that would lead to penalty. Why, may you ask? That's digital information and signal transmission. Just like with Microsoft's operating system, it's compiled code, and source code. It's a piece of digital copyrighted work, and hence, the laws are different.


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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 12:59 am 
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i think companies are are in for a big shock, copyright is dead, it shouldnt be but it is. i draw the line at people making money from selling illeagle copies of software but i cant see the harm in people experiment/learning about software by modding and or hacking code.


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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:23 am 
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I agree with some of what Zimmy said, it is from my point of view unusual behaviour to:

- Modify (by whatever means) someone elses work with the sole purpose of showing that it can be done, adding no real functionality or substantial GUI benefits.

- Doing something achievable through other means e.g. releasing "Microsoft CodeName Sheep" consisting of XP with an unattended setup script, skin downloaded from a skinning site, and one or two default XP programs substituted or with modified GUI's.

- Use Microsoft when you're not trying to sound silly.

- Choosing a codebase for a project which fundamentally cannot fulfill your requirements without addressing it's faults (e.g. modding Windows 95 will produce a state-of-the-ark OS; no matter what you were able to do to it).

- Modding someone elses work such a little amount that essentially, it still functions as the original did without recognising that a modder has used someone elses work in the title, or subtitle of the project.

I think it is also ethically wrong to modify something without improving it substantially or adding to it - as the original product's creator will be judged according to your work.

I believe modding software is the same as fanart / fan stories - it is very hard to pull off a successful attempt - however, when modifications are used to give someone's life value, then they are a well-worth hobby.

As to why people do it: I think it's a way of feeling valued, important, and/or an attempt at gaining respect. Sometimes it's because it is a safe illusion of a job, or of a team to lead; I think the perception is modders are helping the world, rather than partipating in illegal activity. Either way, I expect ^ hit a few raw nerves, as most of us (Me included) did something along these lines, albeit for a very short time.

Maybe that's just my view, I'm sure other people have thier ideas.


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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:39 am 
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you guys are treating the word "microsoft" like its some holy word from the bible, the world wont end if someone types Microsoft, M$, etc , microsoft is just a company,just because some people ( and goverments ) treat microsoft like god doesnt mean they are god, you guys need to take a chill pill.


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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:08 am 
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Microsoft is a company, and by writing the word Microsoft you are inferring that the company "has money in its name", which is clearly an insult. Without stating a proper argument using the term is a rude and subtle insult to anyone who has a positive view of Microsoft, or supports the company.


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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:12 am 
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why? how does it affect you? are related to william h gates? steve ballmer? then i dont see how it affects you in any way? while we live in a democracy people have the right to type Microsoft,M$ or microsh!t thats life, get used to it.


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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:18 am 
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It is a part of maturity to respect the beliefs and rights of people around you, including thier own personal preferences. Freedom of speech entitles you to state your own opinion, but in a democracy you will be held accountable for what you say.


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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:24 am 
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i dont understand your point?


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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:41 am 
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I tend to disagree here.

In instance, version checking can be intended to get people to buy more recent products, when this is not the need. For example, smartdrv 4.2 was set to look for (then just out) DOS 6, when DOS 3.3 was all that was required. Since this patched a key bug (DOS showing the prompt before the cache was written), then a simple 2-byte patch restored this version to users of the then-current DOS 5.

A more recent version is the game Crysis, which artificially looks for DirectX 10 + vista, when it runs perfectly well on directx 9 + xp.

Spelling Microsoft as Microsoft is pretty hackerish (the class of word play is in JargonFile), but it is childish to overdo it. None the same, placing some string like 'defectx' or 'scabdisk', does indeed tell you if directx or scandisk did indeed work.

"You are doing something illegal"

I seriously doubt it is illegal to make string hacks in programs, simply as an exercise to see where things come from. Quite the opposite: by doing things like string hacks and icon chnages, one can find where different parts of things come from. Much of the knowledge comes from "watching colours", ie seeing where changed hacks arise.

It pretty much changes as to what 'being illegal' really means. For example, consider the case of Windows 3.1. When OEMs made PC's in the early 1990's, they would quite often ship an alternate shell in place of progman. Packard Bell, for example, shipped some hideous thing that makse MS-Bob a pleasure to use.

Microsoft use licence agreements to curtail this behaviour, and then even to curtail OEMs from shipping competing products. This is the basis of the anti-trust case against it.

The demise of 'rented software' as a major stream, came when vendors discovered exactly what their obligations under rent was.

I am still wondering what the sudden change between Windows 3.1 (which permits the modification of the source tape), to Windows NT 5 (where the tapes are largely digitally signed) is in itself something illegal.

Some argue that even reading the binaries in LIST is illegal, but there have been some interesting cases given in 'Undocumented DOS', over exactly this matter. Technically, "reverse engineering", dispite the licence agreement, is _not_ illegal. It is more so, illegal for an agreement to make you surrender rights (as opposed to usage rights). So the EULAs may be in fact illegal in their own rights.

That Microsoft does not honour a return policy (to the extent that it has to be taken to court), is itself a breach of the EULA. In any case, EULA's have never been tested in court, for example.

It is of course, 'fair use', to review a program by doing unconventional things to it.

I still can't see what is unfair with comingling and joining several products that one might have acquired licence to. For example, using utilities from several different DOS versions, or slip-streaming Windows and several utilities.

There has even been attempts to make disk imaging (eg Ghost), illegal, since the installation by ghost does not expose the end user to licence agreements.


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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:11 am 
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i have always thought OEM,s should have forced microsoft to include a app like Gparted with windows, boot floppys were a joke!


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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 4:50 am 
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Honestly, I have no clue why people have enough time to resource hack microsoft stuff and using jargon like M$ will get your posts (in my mind) ignored.

Yet, I am ultimately confused about your point? What are you trying to say with this post?

-> Your comment about linux and BSD is a little strange, as you can always get the source; and what fun would that be?

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 PostPost subject: Re: Stop Stealing...        Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:41 pm 
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Zimmy wrote:
As a recent hire for a developer for atheme.org, and a longtime FOSS developer, I must ask, what's the constant obsession with stealing Microsoft's work and claiming it as your own?

Is Resource editor your favorite application? Does Internet Explorer [censored] you off that much? Or are you too scared, or don't have enough knowledge to actually hack up Linux or BSD?

I often wonder why there's millions of (illegal) builds of Windows floating around the internet made by newbie users who have too much time on their hands. You're not making anything anyone uses, or anything anybody cares about, so why bother? It's really not a challenge to use a resource editor, remove programs, or slipstream into windows setup.

A few things to keep in mind:

* You're not programming anything.
* You're not doing anything worthwile.
* You're doing something illegal.
* You're ripping off someone's work and voliating license agreements.
* You seem to have this attitude that Microsoft is bad by saying "[censored] Microsoft" and spelling it M$ and Microsoft.

So my question is: why do people do this? Or did I just answer myself?

Mirrored on http://people.atheme.org/~zimmy/ for lack of content on that page.

Its not like custom OS get sold, or they make any profit. I don't see why you are making a big deal out of it. Its not like some potentially crappy version of custom windows is going to hurt Microsoft.


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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:19 am 
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Not that anybody wants my input, but here goes:

IF you are modifying a Microsoft product of any sorts and tampering with the warranty, you are only limiting yourself to help and support. Also, any product you do NOT legally own is ILLEGAL. You can own ONE copy of Windows XP if you own only ONE license! That's like owning two cars. You can't just drive TWO cars with ONE license! lol You need TWO licenses to drive both cars LEGALLY! Now, you can modify the cars to your liking, but you cannot sell it for a profit with a new name on it.

I created Windows AlphaBetas back in the day for personal care. My computer is slowly dieing by the day, and it could not handle the resource requirements of Windows 98 or of XP. It needed a few tweaks here and there to stop things! Now, legally, I can go in there and tweak the registry, just like I can change my background and appearance settings. But it is illegal to distribute copies of Microsoft Windows. So I have to agree with "Zimmy" (although I know his real name), but you guys need to realize what you are really doing when download a copy of a beta or any prototype. I deleted all the prototypes I had as I learned that it is illegal to own those. It's like going back-stage to a concert with a pass or license! You have to have a license or a pass, or you are going to JAIL! So please reconsider the next time you use an FTP or modify a copy of Windows, Mac OS X, or anything else that is licensed by a company.

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 3:04 am 
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Food for thought troyoda1990.
Plus I think well..most people know Zimmy's name :p


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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 4:04 am 
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A motor-car or a computer does not require a licence. What you buy is hardware. You are quite legitimate to assemble various parts of hardware that you might own, and make your own motor-car or computer. People evidently do.

One rarely finds licences with books: copyright yes, licences, no. This is because books are rather hard to reproduce outside of the channels.

It is a different kettle of fish comes the matter of music (which can be pressed quite easily, and much of the early bootleg/pirate stuff was music), or software. There have been various cases and matters concerning these reproductions.

One might note the case of video-taping movies to time-shift them, not resulting in a separate permanent copy.

There is the reproduction of music on MP3 players, for purpose of allowing music to be played at inconvenient places. The matter of shifting music from medium to medium, when the source is in one's posession is one of the 'fair-use' cases.

Since it is relatively inexpensive to produce a copy, and one can transfer the material without the matter, we then lead to the idea of 'licences'.

Software in particular, require licences. It then comes down to what the licence applies to, and how trustworthy the client is.

For example, one might apply a licence to one user, or one computer, or one site. A computer can be completely rebuilt (eg the same axe had 4 handles + 6 heads). Microsoft for example, has it bound to a particular hex string, but one could fashion several computers with identical hex strings. I really don't know the answers here. Just the questions.


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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 4:45 am 
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os2fan2 wrote:
A motor-car does not require a licence.

I'm guessing he meant registration, not license. :wink:


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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 6:25 am 
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No, it's she...

also, you don't need an EULA type licence to own a car. You do need to register it to operate it on public roads (over here at least, don't know about bits of the world where they drive on the wrong side of the road!), and you need to have a licence to operate motor-crats on public roads.

If ye operate it not on public roads (eg on a mine-site or on a station), you really don't need to have registration or licence.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Stop Stealing...        Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 6:51 am 
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Beta Freak wrote:
Its not like custom OS get sold, or they make any profit. I don't see why you are making a big deal out of it. Its not like some potentially crappy version of custom windows is going to hurt Microsoft.


This.

As long as you have a license for using a product nobody cares what you do to the product as long as you don't sell it.
In fact, I doubt distributing copies of Windows XP or Vista without a key is illegal, nor should it be as there is no license with it. Hacking Windows to make a custom version with more apps and a Neptune flag or whatever shouldn't be considered illegal or stealing since you own a license to use it, and redistributing it will just save someone else the trouble of using doing the same thing you did. As long as it doesn't include your license it wouldn't be stealing at all, even if it did the license would be invalidated almost immediatly after 40 or so computers tried to activate that license.

Ergo. Enter your own license into your M$H4Xx0R copy of Windows it's now your copy of windows. For example: If you download a copy with a keygen/antiwpa file included and you use it without owning a license, then you could be called a thief, or, if you will, a pirate.
You should pay for your software as much as possible, that's a problem for me since I don't have a credit card yet and even if I did I wouldn't have enough money to buy all the software I need.

Look at Adobes stance; Photoshop is stupidly easy to hack and the reason is that Adobe figures their sales come from businesses, and that the more people using their software the better.
I can't defend using pirated copies of Windows in a business however.

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 7:17 am 
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os2fan2 wrote:
No, it's she...

also, you don't need an EULA type licence to own a car. You do need to register it to operate it on public roads (over here at least, don't know about bits of the world where they drive on the wrong side of the road!), and you need to have a licence to operate motor-crats on public roads.

If ye operate it not on public roads (eg on a mine-site or on a station), you really don't need to have registration or licence.

Yeah I know you're a female, Im was referring to the fact you quoted troyoda1990 on his comment of a license for a car.
On a mine I worked at temprarily, we did have to register the car, third party insurance
was mandatory on any job site, I'd imagine it to be the same on any job sight regardless of occupation.
The only place you don't need rego for you car is on your own property.
But back on topic, claiming someone's stealing code simply because of minor
cosmetic changes is a tad lame, this topic is just based on opinions, not the facts.
If it were the facts then nlite would've been canned long ago.
Posts on msfn of how to disable & alter code far outweighs what some kid with reshack will do.
Anyway, this whole thread is a joke, we're here for beta talk, not pressing ones point
of opinion, well, I am at least.


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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:06 am 
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Well, in America, all cars you drive must have some form of insurance or "REGISTRATION" on it. I think that's what I meant. With Windows, when you agree to the EULA or any of their licenses or statements, you have to agree to all parts.

One part states the following:
Quote:
This EULA is valid and grants the end-user rights ONLY if the SOFTWARE is genuine and a genuine Certificate of Authenticity for the SOFTWARE is included.


This means that the End User License Agreement for a Microsoft product is only valid and true to a user if the product was bought legally or "genuinely" with their COA. Without the certificate (or registration), you do not legally own the copy of Windows.

Here's another part for those that like to multi-boot or use Virtual PC:
Quote:
1.1 Installation and use. You may install, use, access,
display and run one copy of the SOFTWARE on the
COMPUTER. The SOFTWARE may not be used by more than
two (2) processors at any one time on the COMPUTER,
unless a higher number is indicated on the COA.

ONE COPY OF THE SOFTWARE! So if you have Windows XP Home, and then XP Professional, and then XP Media Center, and then XP Lite Edition, and then XPerienced Hack Edition, or any other version of Windows, you have to have a legitimate legal COA and EULA licensees for all those to run legally on your computer. What I recommend is if you are hacking a copy of Windows, that you mail to Microsoft, requesting a license and COA for your software. Yeah, never going to happen, so don't waste your time!

I still own, to this date, a copy of Windows 3.11 for Work Groups COA and a MS-DOS 6.22 COA. Without those, I limit what I can do with my computer if it happens to malfunction. Now, let's say you are computer expert and you don't need the help. That's fine, just don't get caught with pirated software. But if you are a newbie to computers and you just "formatted" your software, you need that license or COA to acquire help and support for your warranty of a Microsoft product.


And there are my four cents. :D

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:31 pm 
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Those who whine that "I don't have a credit card to pay for software" or "I don't have the money to pay for software" is giving off big bullsh*t. Here's your options:

A) Wait until your 18 and get a credit card, and buy online.
B) Use paypal, linked up to a bank account, with money in a bank you earned from a job, and buy online.
C) Save up your money, earned from a job, and buy from a store.
D) Give mommy or daddy the cash, and have them use their cc to buy online.
E) Use Open Source

Troyoda1990: Agreeance with you, in a degree. The whole car thing is wack, I wish you guys would quit comparing software licensing with cars, because it doesn't work. But the EULA's in most products state you can't distrubute copies at all, let alone modify it and distrubute it. Modifying it for personal usage is OK, but if you're sharing it among friends, it's still distrubuting it. And I KNOW some of you guys put this stuff on FTP's and BitTorrrent.

Happy Dude: Most people know my name. Most people know my address and telephone # aswell. It's not that hard to find.

os2fan2: Most everywhere you need a drivers license to operate a motor vehicle on a public road. Here in Illinois (my State of Residance), you need Insurance on that vehicle to drive it on a public roadway aswell. I can have it sitting in my garage and alter it all I want without both however. If I was on a farm, I could setup a private track to drive it too.

betaluva: learn some correct grammar.


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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:46 pm 
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Zimmy wrote:
Troyoda1990: Agreeance with you, in a degree. The whole car thing is wack, I wish you guys would quit comparing software licensing with cars, because it doesn't work. But the EULA's in most products state you can't distrubute copies at all, let alone modify it and distrubute it. Modifying it for personal usage is OK, but if you're sharing it among friends, it's still distrubuting it. And I KNOW some of you guys put this stuff on FTP's and BitTorrrent.
Well, first, for the car thing, it was an analogy going along with them. I could use other ones, like following the Ten Commandments, or USA Constitution, or whatnot, but yeah.

This is why I requested specifically before on my AlphaBetas topic for people to remove it from their FTP servers. I learned about this "EULA" statement as dumb as I was before for people to stop using my product, as it tampers with their warranties. I worked on AlphaBetas for personal use and gave it to one other person, which turned into another person, and so on and so forth. I was not expecting it be uploaded to FTPs like the other customized builds, as it was uploaded to an FTP for another person to download it more quickly, as my internet at the time couldn't handle transferring a file from my computer. If people still have this on their server, I only wish they'd remove it. That's why I NEVER released Build 1407 to another person and kept it for my own personal use and made you guys upset. I couldn't trust other beings to not redistribute, as well as using it for my personal advantage. That's why I stopped last year. Because I don't need to get involved with this illegal stuff anymore.

JUST USE YOUR COMPUTER THE WAY IT CAME! Word processor, Internet Explorer, and Windows Media Player is all I need to make my day and work done. Now, other tools may come and go, but I'll still have everything I need to be productive. And if you're worried about security and want to steal software to upgrade? YOU ARE NOT A BUSINESS RUNNING COMPUTERS ALL DAY AND NIGHT! You can backup your software, and if you get a virus, you have everything saved somewhere else in case your computer malfunctions!

So end this fight if it's legal or not to distribute a copy of software. IT IS NOT LEGAL TO DISTRIBUTE YOUR COPY OF ANY SOFTWARE THAT IS NOT LICENSED AS FREEWARE TO ANOTHER COMPUTER!!!

And there are my eight cents!

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:12 pm 
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Lets all stop kidding ourselves here aye, on every single beta I have here
it explicitly states -
Do Not Make Illegal Copies Of This Disk
This whole forum is about sharing & talking about the betas we distribute
amongst one another, If that's not making an illegal copy then we're
kidding ourselves...

What are we greeted with when we view the Home page here on BA...
Seems most of you don't read it... :^)

Quote:
Since we began we have managed to get lots of people from OSBetaArchive to sign up
and try to continue as normal. Unlike OSBetaArchive we haven't yet had any problems
regarding spam, arguments or tension between staff, and we hope to keep it that way.

We have our own private servers and links to distribute the files we have collected
over the time we have been around, and much of this was brought from OSBA to this site.

I hope you choose to stay at BetaArchive and contribute your BETA findings
with us
and discuss those you have not seen before, and those you would like to try.
If you stick to the basic rules then Im sure your time here will be very enjoyable.


Whether or not the files we distribute are betas, the outcome is the same,
distributing copyrighted material...
So what, we'll just push this little fact under the carpet & hope no one
thinks long enough to realise that fact...
So what that some kid hex edits / reshacks an operating system & shares
it around..
I don't see how she/he's any more liable than any one of us for distributing
copyrighted code...
Lets just cut the "I'm holyer than thou" crap & get on with beta collecting...


Last edited by KenOath on Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:06 am, edited 2 times in total.

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