BetaArchive Logo
Navigation Home Screenshots Image Uploader Server Info FTP Servers Wiki Forum RSS Feed Rules Please Donate
UP: 28d, 17h, 16m | CPU: 36% | MEM: 6100MB of 12227MB used
{The community for beta collectors}

Forum rules


Any off topic discussions should go in this forum. Post count is not increased by posting here.
FTP Access status is required to post in this forum. Find out how to get it


Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 22 posts ] 
Author Message
 PostPost subject: Saw this at a bus stop today...        Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:08 am 
Administrator
User avatar
Offline

Joined
Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:47 am

Posts
12460

Location
Merseyside, United Kingdom

Favourite OS
Microsoft Windows 7 Ultimate x64
How untrue is this?

Image

Has nobody ever heard of:
1. Windows media player?
2. Windows movie maker?
3. Notepad?

iLife? Wtf is that? It has no description of whats in it. At least Windows Media Player has a description in the name...

Sheesh... The people at Mac are total n00bs.

EDIT: Notice how the Mac sign was vandalised? :D

_________________
Image

BetaArchive Discord: https://discord.gg/epK3r6A


Top  Profile  WWW
 PostPost subject:        Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:16 am 
Donator
Offline

Joined
Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:00 pm

Posts
3557
iLife does have a description of what's in it. Have you ever been to http://www.apple.com/ilife/? This is enough of a description, isn't it?

And it's not "the people at Mac", it's "the people at Apple" . Regarding vandalism, that's the way the world is today, unfortunately.

Yes, I admit it, I am a Mac user and an Apple fan because of facts, but I don't waste my time bashing Windows although there are situations where I just hate it. :roll:

And, BTW: Media Player and Movie Maker tend to suck compared to iTunes and iMovie. Really.


Top  Profile
 PostPost subject:        Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:19 am 
Administrator
User avatar
Offline

Joined
Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:47 am

Posts
12460

Location
Merseyside, United Kingdom

Favourite OS
Microsoft Windows 7 Ultimate x64
Yeah I could go to the website but why bother? Windows gave me its name AND description in one go! Im too lazy to bother.

Yes, I did mean apple. Brain-dead moment I think.

And why do they stick an "i" infront of everything? Also pointless...

_________________
Image

BetaArchive Discord: https://discord.gg/epK3r6A


Top  Profile  WWW
 PostPost subject:        Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:21 am 
Donator
Offline

Joined
Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:00 pm

Posts
3557
Why bother at all about naming?

I could have a go at MS for naming everything "Windows ..." (especially in Vista) – Windows IE, Mail, Defender, ... How silly is that?


Top  Profile
 PostPost subject:        Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:27 am 
Administrator
User avatar
Offline

Joined
Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:47 am

Posts
12460

Location
Merseyside, United Kingdom

Favourite OS
Microsoft Windows 7 Ultimate x64
Yeah but Apple do it more. Im waiting for the "iSuck". Then they'll have it spot on :lol:

_________________
Image

BetaArchive Discord: https://discord.gg/epK3r6A


Top  Profile  WWW
 PostPost subject:        Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:28 am 
Donator
Offline

Joined
Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:00 pm

Posts
3557
Yeah... :roll:


Top  Profile
 PostPost subject:        Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:07 am 
FTP Access
User avatar
Offline

Joined
Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:06 pm

Posts
2393
empireum wrote:
I could have a go at MS for naming everything "Windows ..." (especially in Vista) – Windows IE, Mail, Defender, ... How silly is that?


Yeah, that's really annoying - you open the Programs menu on a new installation of Vista and pretty much everything in there is called "Windows..." - so unhelpful in trying to find the one you want, and completely pointless too, as I already know that I'm using Windows!

I guess what the ad is saying is that the apps on Windows are not especially integrated, whereas iLife does fit together quite nicely. Though of course you only get iLife when you buy a Mac, not when you buy a copy of Mac OS X, so you have to buy iLife separately (although the two together are still cheaper than most editions of Vista). iLife actually looks pretty cool and I'm looking forward to trying it on my new G3, as I got someone on Freecycle to give me their old iLife '05 discs (Apple made '06 so that most of it needs AltiVec), though it'll probably be a bit slow :(

_________________
Image


Top  Profile
 PostPost subject:        Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 5:58 am 
Donator
User avatar
Offline

Joined
Tue Aug 22, 2006 3:30 pm

Posts
407

Location
Essex, UK

Favourite OS
Gentoo
I also look forward to trying iLife on my imac g3 when i get it, from what ive seen on the internet it does look pretty good and a good opportunity to convert my mum into buying me a macbook :D

_________________
The better candies are in the cage


Top  Profile  WWW  ICQ  YIM
 PostPost subject:        Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:29 am 
Donator
Offline

Joined
Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:00 pm

Posts
3557
Yeah, iLife 06 is really great (but it's not the main app on my MacBook).


Top  Profile
 PostPost subject:        Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:23 am 
FTP Access
User avatar
Offline

Joined
Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:06 pm

Posts
2393
Yes, it's a real shame that Apple blocked off iLife '06 to G3s, so I'll only be able to use iLife '05 on it - that's the thing I hate about Apple, the way that they're stripping out all the non-AltiVec fallback code from their apps and probably even from the next OS X for no reason other than because they think it'll make you go and buy a new Mac (witness how Adobe etc don't make their apps require a G4 Velocity Engine, even though their apps are more demanding than, say OS X, or some of the iLife apps - only the makers of the computers do this, of course).

They don't seem to realise that people will get given old G3s like I have, and if they can see how great all the latest Apple software is (as it will run perfectly fine as long as they leave in the fallback code for G3s) then they might consider buying a Mac when they want a new PC. And as for people who bought iBook G3s only 3 years ago, would they ever buy another Mac, having been told 3 years later that they're not getting any more iLife, OS X etc? If it was because OS X couldn't run well on G3 then that would be one thing, but they're doing it for no technical reason at all, except deliberate obsoleting of old-but-good Macs.


What is your main Mac app then? I'm really keen to try as much as possible on this Mac as I've never owned or even really used an OS X Mac before, and I'm really interested in getting to know the modern Mac platform and Unix at the same time (never having used Unix stuff at all)

_________________
Image


Top  Profile
 PostPost subject:        Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 1:39 am 
Donator
Offline

Joined
Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:25 am

Posts
590

Location
Israel
Vista Ultimate R2 wrote:
the way that they're stripping out all the non-AltiVec fallback code from their apps and probably even from the next OS X for no reason other than because they think it'll make you go and buy a new Mac
First, Apple is a hardware company. You could say the same about Microsoft not allowing IE7 or WMP11 on Windows 2000, or DirectX 10 on Windows XP.
Second, Apple is all about simplicity and usefulness. Spotlight doesn't run well on most early G4s, and you want Leopard and Time Machine on G3s? I'd say they release a compatibility driver (for you, and me, crazy people) and strip everything of non-Altivec code (it's possible - maxxuss did it for SSE3).
Vista Ultimate R2 wrote:
(witness how Adobe etc don't make their apps require a G4 Velocity Engine, even though their apps are more demanding than, say OS X, or some of the iLife apps - only the makers of the computers do this, of course).

Yeah, I would really want my Windows Photoshop to require a G4 :lol:


Top  Profile
 PostPost subject:        Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 2:05 am 
FTP Access
User avatar
Offline

Joined
Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:06 pm

Posts
2393
ppc_digger wrote:
Apple is a hardware company. You could say the same about Microsoft not allowing IE7 or WMP11 on Windows 2000, or DirectX 10 on Windows XP.
Second, Apple is all about simplicity and usefulness. Spotlight doesn't run well on most early G4s, and you want Leopard and Time Machine on G3s? I'd say they release a compatibility driver (for you, and me, crazy people) and strip everything of non-Altivec code (it's possible - maxxuss did it for SSE3).


That's exactly my point, they're doing this just because they want to force people to buy a new machine. Tiger runs fine on my dad's iBook G3 366 MHz, so it's clear that they're doing this not because the software won't perform well enough on a G3, but just because they want to try and kill perfectly good machines. With DX10 there are apparently technical reasons why it can't be easily produced for XP (so they say anyway), but the comparison with programs for XP that could easily run on 2000 is valid eg Defender.

I'm not crazy :P It's just that I'm really keen to find out about the "modern" (ie OS X) Mac platform, but I can't afford to actually buy a Mac! So I have to use a free Mac :D (and it's not worth spending money on one that you're just going to use for messing around with anyway)

As for AltiVec compatibility, from what I've read you would need an AltiVec emulator, not just a driver, and this would cause AltiVec-only programs to run very slowly (whereas if they left in the G3 code and allowed them to run natively they would be usably fast!).

ppc_digger wrote:
Vista Ultimate R2 wrote:
(witness how Adobe etc don't make their apps require a G4 Velocity Engine, even though their apps are more demanding than, say OS X, or some of the iLife apps - only the makers of the computers do this, of course).

Yeah, I would really want my Windows Photoshop to require a G4 :lol:


What do you mean by Windows Photoshop? I'm referring to the Mac version of Photoshop, which only requires a G3. I meant that Photoshop is more demanding hardware-wise than the OS X operating system alone, which proves that Apple are doing this out of greed, not technical reasons ie OS X Leopard wouldn't be usable on a G3.

While Microsoft's software requirements are usually very optimistic eg XP's quoted minimum is a 233 MHz/64 MB PC (as MS want to sell as much software as possible, even if that means selling it to people with PCs that it will be slow on), Apple's are usually hugely inflated (eg ridiculous things like blocking Tiger installations on a Mac with no FireWire, I mean when did you need FireWire to run an OS?!) as they (mistakenly, I think) believe it will make them sell more computers.

Anyway, that’s my rant for the day :P

_________________
Image


Top  Profile
 PostPost subject:        Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 12:41 am 
Donator
Offline

Joined
Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:25 am

Posts
590

Location
Israel
Vista Ultimate R2 wrote:
As for AltiVec compatibility, from what I've read you would need an AltiVec emulator, not just a driver, and this would cause AltiVec-only programs to run very slowly (whereas if they left in the G3 code and allowed them to run natively they would be usably fast!).

It won't run much slower than native G3 code if you translate opcodes on the fly (like Rosetta does).
Vista Ultimate R2 wrote:
What do you mean by Windows Photoshop? I'm referring to the Mac version of Photoshop, which only requires a G3. I meant that Photoshop is more demanding hardware-wise than the OS X operating system alone, which proves that Apple are doing this out of greed, not technical reasons ie OS X Leopard wouldn't be usable on a G3.

You do know I was joking, right?

Besides, if they're so caring, why don't they provide a 604 version for XPostFacto users?


Top  Profile
 PostPost subject:        Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 2:34 am 
FTP Access
User avatar
Offline

Joined
Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:06 pm

Posts
2393
Well as far as I know it would work on a PowerPC 604 (most OS X software will, though I suppose there could be specific things in some programs that cause them not to work), it's just that they don't list that as a supported machine as they don't expect you to be running OS X on one. As opposed to Apple, who actually code their software such that it just refuses to install on older machines, and you have to use XPostFacto to bypass their barriers on good computers like the Beige G3.

Imagine trying to install Vista: "Windows Vista cannot be installed on this computer because you only have 2x USB ports, not the required 4. Press any key to exit Setup". Same thing as saying you need FireWire to run an OS, silly Apple :P

It's not that I don't like Apple, I like a lot of their products very much (why else do you think I'm so excited about getting this G3 system?), but their greed disappoints me somewhat. Like if your iPod's battery dies, they don't make it like a mobile phone where you can just put a new battery in, they make you send it in to them and charge you almost as much as a new iPod costs! And how if a website puts up their Service Source repair/disassembly manuals or even links to them so that people can repair their old Macs instead of having to buy a new one when it goes wrong, Apple just sue the hell out of them!

_________________
Image


Top  Profile
 PostPost subject:        Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 6:21 am 
Donator
Offline

Joined
Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:25 am

Posts
590

Location
Israel
Vista Ultimate R2 wrote:
Imagine trying to install Vista: "Windows Vista cannot be installed on this computer because you only have 2x USB ports, not the required 4. Press any key to exit Setup". Same thing as saying you need FireWire to run an OS, silly Apple :P
No, it would be like DirectX 9 saying "no, I won't run on Windows 95, even though it's 99% like Windows 98 as far as I'm concerned". And FireWire is not required to run Tiger, it's a recommendation.
Vista Ultimate R2 wrote:
And how if a website puts up their Service Source repair/disassembly manuals or even links to them so that people can repair their old Macs instead of having to buy a new one when it goes wrong, Apple just sue the hell out of them!
Well, it's confidential information. It's just like Microsoft suing people who distribute the Windows source code (an action which, just like the one you mentioned, has other motives as well). Apple is a hardware company. Everything it does is to make you buy hardware, just like everything Microsoft does is to make you buy software.


Top  Profile
 PostPost subject:        Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 7:06 am 
FTP Access
User avatar
Offline

Joined
Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:06 pm

Posts
2393
FireWire is required to run Tiger - the first-gen iMacs and iBooks that lacked FireWire can have Panther installed on them in the normal manner, but for Tiger you have to use XPostFacto as Apple put a block in that makes it refuse to install if there's no built-in FireWire.

_________________
Image


Top  Profile
 PostPost subject:        Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:42 am 
FTP Access
User avatar
Offline

Joined
Sun Mar 18, 2007 12:41 am

Posts
140

Location
New York
Apple and Windows are equal, yet the difference is only the hardware requirements.


Top  Profile
 PostPost subject:        Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:00 am 
FTP Access
User avatar
Offline

Joined
Sat Mar 17, 2007 2:01 am

Posts
79
empireum wrote:
Why bother at all about naming?

I could have a go at MS for naming everything "Windows ..." (especially in Vista) – Windows IE, Mail, Defender, ... How silly is that?


Two reasons would probably be:

* pragmatic branding -- consistency, authority and identifiability
The majority of people who buy Windows software are not experts -- having "Microsoft" or "Windows" in front of each product really does help those people know what they are buying or using. If there are two products with similar names and features, guess which one they're going to buy (in the shop) or use (pre-installed) -- the one that *sounds* more authoritative.

* legal prudence
It seems that Microsoft has had to deal with trademark disputes for its entire history. "Excel" was disputed soon after it was released; 20 years later, there were disputes about it "Vista" soon after it was announced, too. In between there have been plenty more disputes :) They're a big company and people are going to try to cash in. By placing "Microsoft" and/or "Windows" (both of which are trademarks the company already owns) in front of the name, they have a much stronger legal position.

I agree that for people like us it's lame. I too want to see "X", not "Microsoft X". Unfortunately the average user's degree of computer sophistication is just not at that level, and the legal system hasn't caught up with the changes brought about by technology.


Top  Profile
 PostPost subject:        Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:17 pm 
Donator
Offline

Joined
Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:00 pm

Posts
3557
rws7 wrote:
Apple and Windows are equal, yet the difference is only the hardware requirements.

Could you please precise that?


Top  Profile
 PostPost subject:        Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:33 am 
Donator
Offline

Joined
Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:25 am

Posts
590

Location
Israel
Vista Ultimate R2 wrote:
FireWire is required to run Tiger - the first-gen iMacs and iBooks that lacked FireWire can have Panther installed on them in the normal manner, but for Tiger you have to use XPostFacto as Apple put a block in that makes it refuse to install if there's no built-in FireWire.

Are you sure it's not another type of lock? Tiger installs and runs fine on PearPC (which doesn't emulate FireWire).


Top  Profile
 PostPost subject:        Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:45 am 
FTP Access
User avatar
Offline

Joined
Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:06 pm

Posts
2393
I think they put something in PearPC to somehow fake FireWire to the installer - I seem to remember when Tiger first came out it was difficult to get it installed on to PearPC (just booting the disc would give a "No" symbol on a grey screen), but it works fine with the newer version. You definitely have to use XPostFacto 4 (they made a new version to deal with this) to install Tiger on the first-gen iMacs and iBooks that lacked FireWire, whereas Panther installs without complaint.

_________________
Image


Top  Profile
 PostPost subject:        Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:44 pm 
Donator
Offline

Joined
Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:25 am

Posts
590

Location
Israel
Vista Ultimate R2 wrote:
I think they put something in PearPC to somehow fake FireWire to the installer - I seem to remember when Tiger first came out it was difficult to get it installed on to PearPC (just booting the disc would give a "No" symbol on a grey screen), but it works fine with the newer version. You definitely have to use XPostFacto 4 (they made a new version to deal with this) to install Tiger on the first-gen iMacs and iBooks that lacked FireWire, whereas Panther installs without complaint.

They emulated fake USB to trick the installer. Firewire had nothing to do with the Tiger incompatibility. It was an IDE controller bug, which was fixed 2-3 months after Tiger's launch.


Top  Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 22 posts ] 




Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  

All views expressed in these forums are those of the author and do not necessarily represent the views of the BetaArchive site owner.

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group

Copyright © 2006-2018

 

Sitemap | XML | RSS