BetaArchive Logo
Navigation Home Database Screenshots Gallery Image Uploader Server Info FTP Servers Wiki Forum RSS Feed Rules Please Donate
UP: 71d, 15h, 10m | CPU: 84% | MEM: 6438MB of 12287MB used
{The community for beta collectors}

Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 74 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 PostPost subject: Boycott Opera!!!!        Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 8:21 pm 
FTP Access
Offline

Joined
Thu Jul 02, 2009 11:52 pm

Posts
53

Location
York, PA - United States

Favourite OS
Longhorn 4074
*QUOTE*(from joejoe.org)
You may have heard it in the news recently, Microsoft is currently the target of an antitrust lawsuit by the EU for bundling its Internet Explorer web browser as the default browser in Windows. That's right, they're being sued for including their own browser in their own operating system.

Who is behind all of this? Opera Software, makers of the Opera web browser. In December of 2007, Opera pushed the EU to open a case against Microsoft as Opera believed it to be anti-competitive for Microsoft to include its own browser as the default browser within their own OS.

For some unknown reason, instead of combating the lawsuit, Microsoft decided to settle, and on Thursday announced that they would no longer include Internet Explorer in versions of Windows 7 (Microsoft's next operating system) sold in Europe, and would leave it up to OEM builders to decide which browser to install.

Well, things took a turn for the worse today when Opera made a statement saying this was not enough, and have now pushed the EU to pursue with the antitrust case. Opera believes the only reasonable solution is for Microsoft to include a "ballot screen" for users to select which browser to use.

That's enough. And it's time we do something about it.

Today, we are proposing a complete boycott of all Opera software.

This is absolutely nothing more than a company, who can't legitimately gain market share, trying to squeeze their unpopular browser onto Windows systems. Opera is simply upset because their browser is dead last in market share, and has already been surpassed by the recently released Google Chrome browser and Apple's Safari browser for Windows.

Microsoft is entirely within their right to include Internet Explorer as the default browser within their own OS, just like Apple includes their own Safari as the default browser in Mac OS X, and just like Opera Software would be free to include Opera as the default browser in their own OS, should they ever make one.

No company should be forced to include a competitor's product within their own products. This is as ridiculous as suing Coca-Cola to include Pepsi in their cans and bottles, or suing Toyota to use engines manufactured by General Motors in their vehicles.



Please join in the boycott, and remove all Opera products from your computers and devices. Opera needs to learn that this is completely unacceptable, and since they refuse to listen to us, it's time they learn the hard way. If they're disappointed with their current market share, they ain't seen nothing yet.

Please consider these great alternatives to Opera Web Browser:

•Internet Explorer
•Mozilla Firefox
•Google Chrome
•Apple Safari
Use Opera on your mobile device? Here are some fantastic alternatives:

•Skyfire
•Iris
•Bolt
And most importantly, spread the word! Use whatever means necessary to get the word out there, Opera doesn't deserve your business. Twitter, Facebook, MySpace, and share it on your favorite forums!

_________________
Why the **** should I have to press "1" for English?


Top  Profile
 PostPost subject: Re: Boycott Opera!!!!        Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 8:43 pm 
Donator
Offline

Joined
Tue Jan 30, 2007 5:45 am

Posts
936

Location
New Zealand
While they are at it sue Apple and every linux distro with a web browser in it. If you ask me its opera being anti competitive.Oh wait if it happened to them to then they could all boycott EU together so it had to make it's own software.

_________________
PC Gamer and hardware plus software enthusiast (especially betas).


Top  Profile
 PostPost subject: Re: Boycott Opera!!!!        Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:05 pm 
FTP Access
User avatar
Offline

Joined
Sat Jun 14, 2008 10:26 pm

Posts
327

Location
USA

Favourite OS
Windows 2000 SP4
win98 wrote:
While they are at it sue Apple and every linux distro with a web browser in it. If you ask me its opera being anti competitive.Oh wait if it happened to them to then they could all boycott EU together so it had to make it's own software.


I don't know if I agree with a complete boycott. But I agree that what Opera is saying is totally wrong. The analogies with soda and cars make perfect sense.


Top  Profile
 PostPost subject: Re: Boycott Opera!!!!        Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:19 pm 
FTP Access
User avatar
Offline

Joined
Fri Jun 26, 2009 11:47 pm

Posts
431

Location
Absurdistlán, Mexico

Favourite OS
Windows CE 2.11 Build 9015
I would have a hard time trying not to use Opera software (Both the DSi and the Wii browsers were developed by Opera).

But I also understand their position. I know many people that relate Internet to Internet Explorer, not only because of their name, but because they don't know that you have options besides MSIE to browse the web.

I like Microsoft a lot, but sometimes it does (or did) abuse the fact that, along with their OS, they included many Demos, Trials or complete software, and most people used them on a regular basis enough to feel that there are no other feasible options.

-Commanderraf

_________________
Image

Help me get to my goal of 5 bitcoins! Donate to 166wvZUzA8j7Ltf3eZZK8KW1fCeiAPFVtr


Top  Profile  WWW  YIM
 PostPost subject: Re: Boycott Opera!!!!        Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:33 pm 
FTP Access
Offline

Joined
Thu Jul 02, 2009 11:52 pm

Posts
53

Location
York, PA - United States

Favourite OS
Longhorn 4074
Commanderraf wrote:
I would have a hard time trying not to use Opera software (Both the DSi and the Wii browsers were developed by Opera).

But I also understand their position. I know many people that relate Internet to Internet Explorer, not only because of their name, but because they don't know that you have options besides MSIE to browse the web.

I like Microsoft a lot, but sometimes it does (or did) abuse the fact that, along with their OS, they included many Demos, Trials or complete software, and most people used them on a regular basis enough to feel that there are no other feasible options.

-Commanderraf


That is true.... I don't agree with everything Microsoft does but it does seem a but ridiculous that they cannot include their own Web Browser with their OS (if people don't like IE they should just download something else). The whole thing is just stupid.

_________________
Why the **** should I have to press "1" for English?


Top  Profile
 PostPost subject: Re: Boycott Opera!!!!        Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:13 pm 
FTP Access
Offline

Joined
Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:53 am

Posts
428
Sports8632 wrote:
This is absolutely nothing more than a company, who can't legitimately gain market share


Like how IE didn't legitimately gain its marketshare?

The entire problem is that MS is using the dominant marketshare of Windows to give IE a dominant marketshare. Also I personally don't want that piece of garbage on my computer, yet with Vista and OS's before, I DIDN'T HAVE A CHOICE. That's what the case is really about. MS forced IE on everyone and made it the default option, which in turn, due to Window's dominant marketshare of around 90%, boosted IE's marketshare. And since Bing is the default search provider of IE, it brings in ad revenue to MS.

Why do you think Opera is upset? They offer their browser for free, so how are they being harmed? Well, by including IE on a OS that has a 90% marketshare, it gives IE a major advantage, since your most "typical" user will use the default option. This in turn takes money away from Opera, since the lower their marketshare, the less people who use their browser and the less people who uses the search box in the browser, which the search providers pay the browser developers money for each search that's typed in. Opera's complaint is that they're not getting a fair shot, and can you honestly say that Firefox, Safari, Opera, Google Chrome are getting a fair shot against IE? I can't.

Yes, Linux distributions and Mac OS X include browsers. However, there's a key different. First of all, the Linux distributions aren't responsible for maintaining and creating Firefox. In fact, Mozilla provides funding to many Linux projects. That is COMPLETELY different from what MS is doing.

For Mac OS X, they only have at most a 10% marketshare (I think 8% is a more realistic number). Their OS does NOT have a dominant marketshare like that of Windows. Therefore, it's IMPOSSIBLE for Apple to use Mac OS X's little marketshare of OS X to boost the marketshare of Safari. So, while they're two similar situations, they are NOT the same, and they differ in that one key aspect, the marketshare.

Even ten years ago, MS tried to block the installation of Netscape onto their computers by making the installation much more complicated than it should have been. MS got nothing more than a slap on the wrist, and the ruling that case was extremely bad. Unfortunately, a precedent in the US court system was set.

I see nothing wrong with Opera's complaint. MS exploited the marketshare of one product to gain marketshare of another product. They have an unfair advantage, one that no other company has. Mozilla, Opera, Apple, ect don't have that advantage. They're climbing and uphill battle. By unbundling IE from Windows

Quote:
Microsoft is entirely within their right to include Internet Explorer as the default browser within their own OS,


According to the EU they're not.

Quote:
just like Apple includes their own Safari as the default browser in Mac OS X,


Not "just like." The two cases are very similar, but one key point is VERY different. Mac OS X doesn't have a dominant market position, Windows does. If the roles were reversed, it would be Apple in the court room instead of MS.

Quote:
No company should be forced to include a competitor's product within their own products.


I agree. This is one point that I disagree with Opera's stance. I think MS should unbundle IE from Windows, and I would have no problem is MS decided to offer IE as a free download through Windows Update as a "recommended" or "optional" download (not as an "important" update, since those get downloaded automatically). MS can also include a download link for IE, much like they do with MS Live Essentials in Windows 7. But the consumer should not have IE forced onto us and we should have the option of getting rid of it, just like I have the option of getting rid of FF, Chrome and Opera off my computer. IE is not an integral part of the OS.

However, Opera's stance isn't enough for me to even consider "boycotting" them. Why cut off my nose to spite my face?

Quote:
Please consider these great alternatives to Opera Web Browser:

•Internet Explorer


IE is a "great alternative?" :mrgreen: It takes 10 seconds for me to open a bloody tab on all 5 of the computers in the house.


Top  Profile
 PostPost subject: Re: Boycott Opera!!!!        Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:24 pm 
Donator
User avatar
Offline

Joined
Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:09 pm

Posts
3935

Favourite OS
OS X 10.8
I see nothing wrong with Microsoft bundling Internet Explorer into Windows. It's their operating system, their platform, and their browser - why not? If Opera wants to be preinstalled on an operating system, why don't they go ahead and make their own, or better yet make a browser that's actually worthwhile using?


Top  Profile  WWW
 PostPost subject: Re: Boycott Opera!!!!        Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:38 pm 
FTP Access
Offline

Joined
Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:48 am

Posts
92
So any OS with a better marketshare than others has to remove their default browser. How is that logical?

If you were making your own OS and it gained a significant marketshare, you would have to remove the default browser because that's anti competitive? It's your OS and you should be able to include or remove whatever you want with it.

Firefox, for example, is the second most popular web browser. It didn't need to be included with an operating system or chosen through a ballot box to earn that title. Stop it Opera.


Top  Profile
 PostPost subject: Re: Boycott Opera!!!!        Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:44 pm 
FTP Access
Offline

Joined
Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:53 am

Posts
428
Derf wrote:
It's their operating system, their platform, and their browser - why not?


Can other companies do what MS is doing? Do other companies have a 90% marketshare in the OS market?

What MS is doing is called "tying," which is often illegal because it is anti-competitive in nature. IE doesn't have to stand on its own because MS bundles it with Windows, giving IE an unfair advantage.

F44 Control wrote:
So any OS with a better marketshare than others has to remove their default browser. How is that logical?


How is it logical that IE should be allowed an unfair advantage? This isn't about MS out-marketing the other browsers through TV ads and Internet promotions. It's not about IE being a better product. It's about MS using Window's dominant marketshare position to boost the marketshare of IE. What other company has that same advantage in the browser market? They're fighting and uphill battle. They should be on even ground.

Quote:
If you were making your own OS and it gained a significant marketshare, you would have to remove the default browser because that's anti competitive?


Yes. All in order to give the consumer more choices. We don't have a choice to not have IE on our computers as it stands now (with pre-Windows 7). How is THAT fair?

Quote:
It's your OS and you should be able to include or remove whatever you want with it.


No, you shouldn't be allowed to conquer a market by using an unrelated product to do so. Just as a single company isn't allowed to "hog" natural resources.

If IE stood by itself, without being tied to Windows, and IE had a dominant marketshare, then I would have NO problem with that. But that is not what happened. How do you think IE's marketshare peaked at a WHOPPING 95% in 2002? It wasn't because it was a "better" product. It was because MS had crushed the competition.

Had IE attained its marketshare the same way MS Office did, we wouldn't be having this discussion. MS Office became the defacto Office program through aggressive marketing and better features. In other words, MS beat the competition fair and square. The same can't be said about IE.

Quote:
Firefox, for example, is the second most popular web browser. It didn't need to be included with an operating system or chosen through a ballot box to earn that title.


But it's not even a close second place. 22% vs 65%. IE has nearly 3 times the marketshare of IE. And the reason why IE has lost so much marketshare is because of IE6 and the time it took for basic features, like tabbed browsing, to be implemented.

Saying that Firefox is second doesn't mean much if you don't actually show how much behind Firefox is from IE.


Top  Profile
 PostPost subject: Re: Boycott Opera!!!!        Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:17 am 
FTP Access
Offline

Joined
Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:48 am

Posts
92
I don't go into your house and say "oh you have to paint the walls green because a lot of walls in houses are painted red and we just can't have a large majority."

Besides, people use whatever is given to them out of the box. And a lot of (most) businesses require the use of Internet Explorer at work, so some people are getting used to using only that.

I believe that if it's yours, you can do whatever you want with it and people need to stop whining about not being in the lead. If it's not working, trying something different instead of forcing them to change.


Top  Profile
 PostPost subject: Re: Boycott Opera!!!!        Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:23 am 
Donator
Offline

Joined
Mon Feb 25, 2008 3:57 am

Posts
429

Location
Greece

Favourite OS
Windows 7 Ultimate x64 SP1
I am really waiting for October for Windows 7 to come out in EU and new users trying to start surfing the Internet with ftp and command line. I will laugh very much at people like Ambig and EU trying to say that they are right :mrgreen:


Top  Profile
 PostPost subject: Re: Boycott Opera!!!!        Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:33 am 
FTP Access
Offline

Joined
Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:53 am

Posts
428
F44 Control wrote:
I don't go into your house and say "oh you have to paint the walls green because a lot of walls in houses are painted red and we just can't have a large majority."


Once again, apples and oranges. There ARE government regulations that do regulate what type of insulation I can put in my house (like I can't put asbestos in my house), what type of paint I can use, and pretty soon, how energy efficient it will have to be.

It seems as though you're unable to look at this from the perspective of companies like Mozilla, Opera, ect. What should they do to try and get a more even footing? Is it fair that MS is using Window's marketshare to push IE. If you want to learn more about what's going on, look up "tying."

Quote:
Besides, people use whatever is given to them out of the box.


Thank you for proving my point. THIS is why Mozilla, Opera, ect have such an uphill battle. People use the default option, which doesn't even GIVE Mozilla, Opera, ect the OPPORTUNITY to compete.

Quote:
And a lot of (most) businesses require the use of Internet Explorer at work, so some people are getting used to using only that.


Nobody is saying that MS has to discontinue IE. Nobody is saying that MS can't offer it at a download through Windows Update. Nobody is saying that they can't put a download option in Windows 7, much like what MS is going to do with Windows Live Essentials. So that entire point is moot, since nobody is saying that businesses CAN'T use IE.

Quote:
I believe that if it's yours, you can do whatever you want with it and people need to stop whining about not being in the lead.


Well, that's what's kind of wrong with your viewpoint. You CAN'T do whatever you want. You haven't been able to do what you want with your product for about 80 years. Do you want to see the re-emergence of monopolies? Do you want to only have ONE option in a market? I don't.

Quote:
If it's not working, trying something different instead of forcing them to change.


Like? What should Mozilla and Opera do to combat MS's unfair practices of bundling IE with Windows? Please, give some ideas. maybe you can submit them to the companies.

Hacker?pcs wrote:
I am really waiting for October for Windows 7 to come out in EU and new users trying to start surfing the Internet with ftp and command line. I will laugh very much at people like Ambig and EU trying to say that they are right :mrgreen:


I live in the US, so this ruling doesn't affect me. Nice try though. And the EU isn't removing the ability to install IE on your computer or the ability to browse the Internet.

Instead of looking at this from the perspective of MS, try looking at it from the perspective of Opera and Mozilla. If you're unable to that, then we really have nothing to discuss.


Top  Profile
 PostPost subject: Re: Boycott Opera!!!!        Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:01 am 
Donator
User avatar
Offline

Joined
Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:09 pm

Posts
3935

Favourite OS
OS X 10.8
Ambig wrote:
F44 Control wrote:
I don't go into your house and say "oh you have to paint the walls green because a lot of walls in houses are painted red and we just can't have a large majority."


Once again, apples and oranges. There ARE government regulations that do regulate what type of insulation I can put in my house (like I can't put asbestos in my house), what type of paint I can use, and pretty soon, how energy efficient it will have to be.

It seems as though you're unable to look at this from the perspective of companies like Mozilla, Opera, ect. What should they do to try and get a more even footing? Is it fair that MS is using Window's marketshare to push IE. If you want to learn more about what's going on, look up...

You know what they should do to get a more even footing? How about creating a product worthwhile? Don't tell me that just because it's included with Windows, that's automatically what they're going to use. I have some very technology unsavvy friends who download Firefox on their own accord. My mother uses Netscape Navigator, and my brother uses Safari. We're not talking about anybody here who uses their computers for much more than playing the occasional Solitaire. Opera's complaining because of their low market share, which they attribute to "tying" - I'm calling it "convenience". Those who truly want a better product get Firefox, as proven by their 30% marketshare.


Top  Profile  WWW
 PostPost subject: Re: Boycott Opera!!!!        Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:24 am 
Donator
Offline

Joined
Mon Feb 25, 2008 3:57 am

Posts
429

Location
Greece

Favourite OS
Windows 7 Ultimate x64 SP1
Ambig wrote:
I live in the US, so this ruling doesn't affect me. Nice try though. And the EU isn't removing the ability to install IE on your computer or the ability to browse the Internet.

Instead of looking at this from the perspective of MS, try looking at it from the perspective of Opera and Mozilla. If you're unable to that, then we really have nothing to discuss.

I live in EU so ruling affect me, but I don't care because I will download a non-E 7 Edition. I use Firefox 100% and I am really disappointed that I'm forced to use IE in Windows because YouTube doesn't load in Firefox. For me, there isn't even comparison between Firefox, Opera and IE. You didn't think something: how can someone download a browser (Opera, Firefox, IE) when there is NO TOOL to download them? You will say "everyone can download it from somewhere, a friend, an Internet cafe". OK, that's right. What about companies with 30+ computers? To be legal, they must install a browser at every computer computer. Modifying the 7 disc make them illegal. Anyways, removing the browser from Windows will cause many problems and I can tell you a hundred examples...


Top  Profile
 PostPost subject: Re: Boycott Opera!!!!        Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:41 am 
Donator
User avatar
Offline

Joined
Thu Oct 30, 2008 3:07 am

Posts
1252

Location
Los Angeles, California

Favourite OS
Windows 7 x64
Well, here is what the EU want:
remove notepad because it is anti competitive to notepad++
remove paint because it is anti competitive to paint.NET
remove windows desktop gallery because it is anti competitive to yahoo widgets
remove disk defragmenter becuase it is anti competitive to diskeeper

etc. you get the idea.

_________________
Never leave home without PeerBlock, or you might not return at all.


Top  Profile
 PostPost subject: Re: Boycott Opera!!!!        Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:42 am 
Donator
User avatar
Offline

Joined
Thu May 01, 2008 8:21 pm

Posts
524

Location
Monson, MA

Favourite OS
Windows for Workgroups 3.11
Ambig wrote:
MS can also include a download link for IE, much like they do with MS Live Essentials in Windows 7.


Hacker?pcs wrote:
You didn't think something: how can someone download a browser (Opera, Firefox, IE) when there is NO TOOL to download them?


I agree with Hacker?pcs. Say I just bought my first computer and I want to experience the internet because I've heard so many things about it. I set up the computer, turn it on, and I'm at the desktop. I am now completely and utterly confused, because there is no way for me to get to the internet.

Ambig, in your argument you have created a paradox. You state that there should be no browser bundled with Windows. You also state that the user can just download a browser from the internet using the computer that doesn't have a browser. Try that out for me and let me know how that works out for you.

Just because you hate IE doesn't mean it can't be bundled with Windows. I also don't like it, but without it, I would have never been able to download and install Firefox.

Also, part of the reason that Opera has such a small market share is that it used to be commercial software, meaning that people had to pay to use it. Why pay for something, when you can use IE out of the box, or download a free alternative (at the time, Netscape)?

_________________
............................Visit my gopher site!
Image


Last edited by nickenzi on Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top  Profile
 PostPost subject: Re: Boycott Opera!!!!        Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:45 am 
Donator
User avatar
Offline

Joined
Thu Oct 30, 2008 3:07 am

Posts
1252

Location
Los Angeles, California

Favourite OS
Windows 7 x64
EU should make Microsoft include an application which list the available browsers and allow user to download a browser without being a browser itself.

_________________
Never leave home without PeerBlock, or you might not return at all.


Top  Profile
 PostPost subject: Re: Boycott Opera!!!!        Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 3:38 am 
FTP Access
Offline

Joined
Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:53 am

Posts
428
Derf wrote:
Ambig wrote:
F44 Control wrote:
I don't go into your house and say "oh you have to paint the walls green because a lot of walls in houses are painted red and we just can't have a large majority."


Once again, apples and oranges. There ARE government regulations that do regulate what type of insulation I can put in my house (like I can't put asbestos in my house), what type of paint I can use, and pretty soon, how energy efficient it will have to be.

It seems as though you're unable to look at this from the perspective of companies like Mozilla, Opera, ect. What should they do to try and get a more even footing? Is it fair that MS is using Window's marketshare to push IE. If you want to learn more about what's going on, look up...

You know what they should do to get a more even footing? How about creating a product worthwhile? Don't tell me that just because it's included with Windows, that's automatically what they're going to use. I have some very technology unsavvy friends who download Firefox on their own accord. My mother uses Netscape Navigator, and my brother uses Safari. We're not talking about anybody here who uses their computers for much more than playing the occasional Solitaire. Opera's complaining because of their low market share, which they attribute to "tying" - I'm calling it "convenience". Those who truly want a better product get Firefox, as proven by their 30% marketshare.


If you took note, you would realize that I'm not talking specifically about Opera. I think Firefox should have a much larger marketshare than they have now, but they don't, and it's not because IE is better. My grandfather uses Firefox as well, but my father, who knows more about computers than he, uses IE. I suggested that he switch to Firefox. I told him that it offers extensions, it's safer, ect. But to him, none of that was really compelling enough to switch, and he's perfectly content using the default browser. This is the type of things Mozilla and Opera have to go against. They have a major disadvantage due to MS using another, unrelated, product to push IE. There is nothing they can do to combat that without government intervention.

Quote:
Well, here is what the EU want:
remove notepad because it is anti competitive to notepad++
remove paint because it is anti competitive to paint.NET
remove windows desktop gallery because it is anti competitive to yahoo widgets
remove disk defragmenter becuase it is anti competitive to diskeeper

etc. you get the idea.


None of them have logged complaints. But you're right, there is a line that needs to be drawn, but where does it get drawn? Do you just let MS do whatever it damn well pleases at the expense of putting other programmers out of business, causing jobs to disappear, or do you gimp the consumer by not providing basic functionality?

The thing is that MS bundling those applications aren't really causing companies to lose money. By bundling Notepad, the creators of Notepad++ aren't losing money. By bundling paint, the creators of paint.net aren't losing money, just as Photoshop isn't losing money since comparing photoshop to paint is like comparing WordPad to MS Word. Windows Desktop Gallery isn't causing a financial loss to Yahoo. The basic disk defragmenter can be argued that it is providing a basic, and essential function to the OS.

But the thing with IE, is that it doesn't need to be installed with the OS. Arguably, none of them do. So yes, where does the line get drawn? But there does need to be government regulation to ensure that a company, such as MS, doesn't kill off a market.

Imagine if car manufacturers said that ONLY the dealer can service the car without breaking the warranty. In the US, that's illegal because that would hurt the business of many independent auto repair places. Such act would fall under "tying." It's anti-competitive. But using some of the other posters' arguments (it's their warranty and car, they can do whatever they please), such an act would be detrimental to other businesses, but to the consumer as well, because you're taking the consumer's choice away.

MS bundling IE is in some regards taking away our choice, since for years, we couldn't remove it. But more importantly, it's detrimental to other businesses. Is having IE tied to the OS worth the possibility of putting other businesses out of business? I personally don't think so. I feel as though I provided other equally effective alternatives that MS could use.

nickenzi wrote:
Ambig, in your argument you have created a paradox. You state that there should be no browser bundled with Windows. You also state that the user can just download a browser from the internet using the computer that doesn't have a browser. Try that out for me and let me know how that works out for you.


I'm able to download Windows Updates in Windows Vista and Windows 7 without having to use a browser. There is no reason why MS couldn't include a web-based installer or offer IE8 through the Internet. This would "please" the EU, since IE is no longer tied to the OS, and it gives the consumer the option of downloading it. Also, this ruling wouldn't necessarily stop OEM manufacturers (Dell, HP, ect) from pre-installing IE, Firefox or Opera, which I suspect they will still bundle a browser with their computers.

As you see, there is no paradox. MS is removing IE8, but they're not removing the Trident layout engine from the OS. MS could easily create a "installer" that when clicked, access one of MS's FTP servers where the IE8 installer is downloaded and then ran.

And how did people get browsers for their computers before MS made available IE? ISPs offered browsers on CD. You could go on someone elses computer and get a browser.

There's no paradox. IE is not the end-all be-all of the Internet. MS has options available to them.

Quote:
Just because you hate IE doesn't mean it can't be bundled with Windows. I also don't like it, but without it, I would have never been able to download and install Firefox.


You can install firefox through the command prompt.

And like I keep saying, I have no problem if MS includes a installer that downloads the package using MS's FTP servers or if MS uses Windows Update to allow you to install IE.

My biggest complaint over MS bundling IE with Windows is that for years, they never allowed you to uninstall it, and with Vista, there is NO reason for you to not be able to remove IE.

And perhaps with IE no longer being bundled with Windows, OEM manufacturers will now bundle Firefox or Opera or Google Chrome with their systems, instead of IE, or maybe even make it an option during the system configuration on first start up, or allow you to have it installed when you're configuring the system online.

This can really open the door up to other software creators.


Top  Profile
 PostPost subject: Re: Boycott Opera!!!!        Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 3:59 am 
FTP Access
Offline

Joined
Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:36 am

Posts
40
wtf is their problem? (Opera)

How can you go online to download a browser withought having a browser? What a joke..

By the way I personally find IE fast, or should I say OK. Don't support Opera...


Top  Profile
 PostPost subject: Re: Boycott Opera!!!!        Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:01 am 
Donator
User avatar
Offline

Joined
Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:09 pm

Posts
3935

Favourite OS
OS X 10.8
Ambig wrote:
You can install firefox through the command prompt.

And like I keep saying, I have no problem if MS includes a installer that downloads the package using MS's FTP servers or if MS uses Windows Update to allow you to install IE.

My biggest complaint over MS bundling IE with Windows is that for years, they never allowed you to uninstall it, and with Vista, there is NO reason for you to not be able to remove IE.

And perhaps with IE no longer being bundled with Windows, OEM manufacturers will now bundle Firefox or Opera or Google Chrome with their systems, instead of IE, or maybe even make it an option during the system configuration on first start up, or allow you to have it installed when you're configuring the system online.

This can really open the door up to other software creators.
Oh yeah, I eagerly looking forward to having to explain to people that to go on the internet, you need to go into the "command prompt". And dear god I hope OEM manufacturers don't bundle other browsers with their systems, they load it with enough crap as it is. Why go through the extra licensing effort when they can use a standard client edition, which comes with an internet browser? It doesn't make sense from a licensing standpoint.


Top  Profile  WWW
 PostPost subject: Re: Boycott Opera!!!!        Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:08 am 
FTP Access
Offline

Joined
Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:36 am

Posts
40
Quote:
You can install firefox through the command prompt.

And like I keep saying, I have no problem if MS includes a installer that downloads the package using MS's FTP servers or if MS uses Windows Update to allow you to install IE.

My biggest complaint over MS bundling IE with Windows is that for years, they never allowed you to uninstall it, and with Vista, there is NO reason for you to not be able to remove IE.

And perhaps with IE no longer being bundled with Windows, OEM manufacturers will now bundle Firefox or Opera or Google Chrome with their systems, instead of IE, or maybe even make it an option during the system configuration on first start up, or allow you to have it installed when you're configuring the system online.

This can really open the door up to other software creators.


I don't think my grandma on 7 will learn all of that.. Look.. Opera fails and this is the proof..


Top  Profile
 PostPost subject: Re: Boycott Opera!!!!        Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:11 am 
Donator
Offline

Joined
Mon Feb 25, 2008 3:57 am

Posts
429

Location
Greece

Favourite OS
Windows 7 Ultimate x64 SP1
Ambig wrote:
The thing is that MS bundling those applications aren't really causing companies to lose money.

Here is the deal. Microsoft is a company too, so IF Windows E editions cost the same as normal editions, so why should Microsoft really care? I mean, IE is free, they aren't losing money with or without IE bundled with every Windows copy.

Ambig wrote:
You can install firefox through the command prompt.

You must have a very good memory to remember this :?
Code:
http://releases.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/releases/3.5/win32/en-US/Firefox Setup 3.5.exe

And maybe ftp won't work with http protocol :?

Ambig wrote:
And like I keep saying, I have no problem if MS includes a installer that downloads the package using MS's FTP servers or if MS uses Windows Update to allow you to install IE.

You are actually confusing me a little. You say that IE must be an option in Windows Update. OK, that sounds good to me. BUT, do you actually try to force people to install IE and then install another browser? That will force everyone to have IE installed and their favorite browser also.

To speak for real for a moment, as I previously said Windows can't be sold without IE for the simple reason that Microsoft doesn't want all those problems from big corporations, new customers, etc. I know that this opinion is actually like accepted capitalism over the whole IT industry corporations (not only Microsoft) and I am sad about that.


Top  Profile
 PostPost subject: Re: Boycott Opera!!!!        Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:17 am 
FTP Access
Offline

Joined
Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:36 am

Posts
40
Quote:
Here is the deal. Microsoft is a company too, so IF Windows E editions cost the same as normal editions, so why should Microsoft really care? I mean, IE is free, they aren't losing money with or without IE bundled with every Windows copy.


Yeah they would lose money.. What do you think people will think when they will know that Windows 7 comes with no browser. Some of them will stay on Vista or XP just because of that stupidess and you know some would do that.. This is simply too stupid. Windows comes with IE. Windows 7 comes with IE AND you have the ability to disable it. Remove it if you don't like it - End of the story.

DR


Top  Profile
 PostPost subject: Re: Boycott Opera!!!!        Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:29 am 
Donator
Offline

Joined
Sat May 24, 2008 10:05 am

Posts
2045
I dont see how Microsoft Including IE in their own OS is anit-competitive, its all their software, they can do whatever they want.
I can however, see how OEM licensing is anti competitive...

But as someone said before, the reason Opera has a small marketshare is because it sucks dongs, not because IE has the advantage of being shipped with Windows, make better software and people will choose it over IE.


Top  Profile
 PostPost subject: Re: Boycott Opera!!!!        Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:58 am 
FTP Access
Offline

Joined
Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:53 am

Posts
428
Derf wrote:
Oh yeah, I eagerly looking forward to having to explain to people that to go on the internet, you need to go into the "command prompt". And dear god I hope OEM manufacturers don't bundle other browsers with their systems, they load it with enough crap as it is. Why go through the extra licensing effort when they can use a standard client edition, which comes with an internet browser? It doesn't make sense from a licensing standpoint.


I don't think there's any reason to jump the gun at this point, since, a) The EU hasn't announced what they want MS to do (whether they will comply or not, we'll see), or b)MS hasn't really announced what they're going to do for the N versions of Windows 7. They said IE8 won't be bundled with it, but beyond that, there hasn't really been any news.

And licensing for OEM manufacturers hasn't really ever been a reason to not do something. Like you said, look at all the crap that gets installed with it. I wouldn't have a problem if Dell decided to bundle Firefox with their computers in lieu of IE, or maybe they'll decide to bundle IE. Who knows? I wouldn't jump the gun at this point in time.

If MS decides to give the users a choice (or if the EU makes MS), then I wouldn't be upset, but I don't think that would be a good choice from the seat of MS. If the court allows MS to offer it as a download like MS Live Essentials (but instead of bringing you to a webpage, it uses FTP to download the installer) or offer it through Windows Update, I think those methods would be the best solution to problem, as it doesn't force MS to promote competitors products, but it can lay to rest the anti-competitive argument.

DanielRemains wrote:
I don't think my grandma on 7 will learn all of that.. Look.. Opera fails and this is the proof..


Your grandmother can't click a "Install IE now" icon or run Windows update? I think she can.

And how does any of this "prove" that "Opera fails." Opera is a company. Companies log complaints against other companies ALL the time. This seriously is nothing new.

And have you ever actually used Opera? Many of the features in modern browsers that you now take for granted, were created by Opera. The concept of tab browsing was introduced in Opera (then called Multitorg Opera), back 15 years ago. Sessions was also created by Opera. Mouse Gestures was created by Opera.

In fact, you can go look through the list of innovations that Opera has brought:
http://operawiki.info/OperaInnovations?show_comments=1

Whether you want to admit it or not, Opera has changed the way we browse the web. Opera is hardly "fail." The only thing Opera failed to do, was ditch the shareware scheme earlier on.

Hacker?pcs wrote:
Here is the deal. Microsoft is a company too, so IF Windows E editions cost the same as normal editions, so why should Microsoft really care? I mean, IE is free, they aren't losing money with or without IE bundled with every Windows copy.


The reason why MS cares, and why other browsers care, is that little search box in the top right hand corner of the screen. As dumb and as small it it seems, it's the major point of contention. When you first install IE, you have the "express" route or you can customize it. Most people probably go the express route. Anyway, the default search provider is Live Search.

When you use Live Search, you generate ad revenue for MS. The model is very similar to how Google makes money off their search engine.

Other companies, like Opera and Mozilla, also use that search box to generate ad revenue for companies like Google. Everytime you use that box, Google gets money, and part of the revenue goes to companies like Mozilla and Opera.

So this unfair advantage MS has given itself by bundling IE with Windows has a HUGE impact for other companies. Since MS is using a method of pushing their browser on consumers that is unavailable to other companies, because no other company has a 90% marketshare, Firefox, Opera, Google Chrome and Safari literally can't compete. Don't you think that it's pretty pathetic that the browser with the 2nd highest marketshare only has a share of 22%? And when you compare Firefox to IE8, it's better in many areas. That should throw up red flags and say, "hey, something is wrong with this picture."

Yeah, the reasons why Opera are perusing MS are "selfish," but that doesn't mean that they don't have a valid point.

Quote:
You are actually confusing me a little. You say that IE must be an option in Windows Update. OK, that sounds good to me. BUT, do you actually try to force people to install IE and then install another browser? That will force everyone to have IE installed and their favorite browser also.


In Windows Update, the default option is to automatically install "Important" updates, but not updates that are branded as "Recommended" or "Optional." What I'm saying, is that MS should be allowed to brand IE8 as an "Update" that is classified as "Recommended" or "Optional." That way, the update is not installed automatically, but the user is still given the option of installing the browser. I merely suggest this as kind of a "loophole" around the EU's and Opera's logic, because, technically, MS wouldn't be tying IE to Windows anymore, would they? ;)

Quote:
To speak for real for a moment, as I previously said Windows can't be sold without IE for the simple reason that Microsoft doesn't want all those problems from big corporations, new customers, etc. I know that this opinion is actually like accepted capitalism over the whole IT industry corporations (not only Microsoft) and I am sad about that.


Sure they can. The big companies order their computers from companies like Dell, HP, ect and have them setup by either their own IT department or an outside IT company. I'm sure the IT companies have to tools to install anything they need to install, and there's nothing stopping Dell, HP, ect from bundling IE or some other browser with the OS. There are plenty of ways of getting a browser on the computer. You just have to think a little outside of the box.

And I wouldn't be surprised if many of these IT companies buy the computers and use a VLK (or whatever Vista has in place of VLK) with their own image of the OS. Since the IT configures the images to the companies needs, they can put IE in it. ;)

J.Byrne wrote:
I dont see how Microsoft Including IE in their own OS is anit-competitive,


Can Mozilla or Opera bundle their browsers with an OS that has a 90% marketshare? No. Therefore, MS's actions are anti-competitive. Bundling IE with Windows gives them an unfair advantage, does it not? It may be their OS, but that doesn't give them the right to do whatever they want with it.

If you buy a car, should the manufacture stipulate in their warranty that you can ONLY have your car serviced at the dealer? No. That would take choice away from the consumers and hurt other company's businesses.

Quote:
But as someone said before, the reason Opera has a small marketshare is because it sucks dongs


Opera has a small marketshare because until about 4 years ago, Opera had advertisement for unpaid versions of it. Opera doesn't have the brand recognition that Google or Apple does, which helps to explain why their marketshare is so low. The only thing Opera is really lacking from Firefox is extensions, and that's part of the reason why Firefox has a larger marketshare. Also, Firefox benefited from free advertisement on TV show's "tech" segments that recommend Firefox as a safer alternative to IE.

P.S. FOR THE LOVE OF CHRIST, STOP POSTING WHILE I'M TYPING! THERE HAVE BEEN 4 NEW POSTS TOTAL AS I'VE BEEN TYPING THIS. That is why it's so long....


Top  Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 74 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next




Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

All views expressed in these forums are those of the author and do not necessarily represent the views of the BetaArchive site owner.

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group

Copyright © 2006-2019

 

Sitemap | XML | RSS