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Should we remove all the Windows 10 builds from the FTP?
Poll runs till Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:36 am
Yes, remove them. 20%  20%  [ 17 ]
No, keep them. 73%  73%  [ 61 ]
I don't care. 7%  7%  [ 6 ]
Total votes : 84
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 PostPost subject: Re: Should we remove all Windows 10 releases?        Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:17 am 
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I still want to keep the SKUs separated and only patch languages, so the savings won't be as optimistic as your example, but still quite a lot. I am doing some experimentation and if it's good I'll work on replacing some releases to reduce the size.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Should we remove all Windows 10 releases?        Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:44 am 
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I respect your decision. Still, the SVF patch may still be a great help for FTP's capacity optimization.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Should we remove all Windows 10 releases?        Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:55 am 
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mrpijey wrote:
...just like with the previous OEM recovery discs...
AlphaBeta wrote:
I won't be surprised if it turns out that more than 75% of Windows 10 stuff has never been touched by a living creature ever since uploaded.
Which is perhaps why they should be removed... It's quite a bit of work keeping track of the Win10 releases... but again, we have a lot of releases people have not downloaded, doesn't make them less valuable. People may not be interested in Win10 stuff today, but one day people will collect them just as they collected XP, Win7 and Vista builds etc today.

IMO, even older OEM recovery discs and older driver discs are more worthy of preservation at this point than Windows 10. Of course I'm one of those who will never use Windows 10 under any circumstances (unless I'm forced to troubleshoot something for someone I know, lol).

I can see the argument for "preserving everything;" but on the other hand this argument also covers a good many things more important than Windows 10 that are not currently preserved here.

As Battler mentioned, the continuous release cycle of Windows 10 is also a problem. It creates a constant stream of new "junk" for you to have to spend time with that would be better spent on any older software releases.

No one can predict the future, but I'm not so certain Windows 10 betas will ever enjoy the degree of interest that existed for the older Windows releases. The "environment" just isn't the same.. back then computers were still new to many people and they were more interesting to experiment with. More people who were interested in them were "leaders", not "followers." Now everyone has a computer and they're an expected part of daily life. More people may be using computers now, but IMO there's a smaller percentage of them who are "power users" that would ever take an interest in thinking or working outside the box. Windows is no longer the OS of choice for these "power users" as it has become completely dumbed down, locked down, and reduced to the lowest common denominator for the masses. Computing today is no longer about individuality, it's about conformity.

Judging by the votes cast so far it appears that most people want to keep them.. I suppose my suggestion at this point would simply be to place Windows 10 at the bottom of the priority list. ANY other releases should be prioritized, and if you have time left after that to spend on Windows 10 then fine, and if not, fine as well.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Should we remove all Windows 10 releases?        Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:15 am 
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LoneCrusader wrote:
I suppose my suggestion at this point would simply be to place Windows 10 at the bottom of the priority list. ANY other releases should be prioritized, and if you have time left after that to spend on Windows 10 then fine, and if not, fine as well.

Not a bad idea actually. I suppose this would keep both sides happy - Windows 10 stays but doesn't keep older stuff from being processed sooner.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Should we remove all Windows 10 releases?        Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:43 am 
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In my opinion, the best and most interesting builds that helped shape W10 as it is today were all before, and including 14393, so I'd say it's good to keep all of that stuff...

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 PostPost subject: Re: Should we remove all Windows 10 releases?        Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:52 am 
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Why don't you apply compression to the archive? In my opinion, even if the compression ratio is 99 percent and takes a long time to compress/decompress, it still worth it because collectively it will save a good amount of space and bandwidth. Some releases might get a much better compression ratio. If Windows 10 releases are to be removed, remove those released to the public.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Should we remove all Windows 10 releases?        Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:46 am 
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Applegame12345 wrote:
I think early Windows 10 releases (such as 9780-10176) and releases from oddball labs such as rs_xbox should be kept on FTP.

My instinct is to second this, though I'd be inclined to keep some of the others where new features were just being tried out - such those with Sets included.

However, since Microsoft don't host previous releases, I would recommend keeping complete (x86/amd64 AIO) images of the release versions. I know it isn't BA's policy to retain non-abandonware "RTM" software in our archives, but since the images have always been freely available (since the licence is now a separate artefact to the installation media), and since almost all computers in use are prebought and have Windows licences, I'd say that's not relevant to Windows 10 - and some people do have legit reasons for needing an older version, for instance when a feature update breaks drivers.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Should we remove all Windows 10 releases?        Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:27 am 
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ComputerHunter wrote:
Why don't you apply compression to the archive? In my opinion, even if the compression ratio is 99 percent and takes a long time to compress/decompress, it still worth it because collectively it will save a good amount of space and bandwidth. Some releases might get a much better compression ratio. If Windows 10 releases are to be removed, remove those released to the public.


This is a huge waste of time and processing power on the client and server side, respectively. If you have a thousand 3GB releases (which leads to a total of 3000GB) with a 99% compression ratio, you're only saving up around 30GB, which is pretty much negligible when compared to the time wasted on compression/decompression. It's especially negligible with Win10 ESD releases, which already have brutal compression and deduplication applied.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Should we remove all Windows 10 releases?        Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:29 pm 
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When you have really slow internet and very limited disk space, it worth it. 30GB is a lot, I mean it, a lot and I would rather spend a day extracting files than downloading extra 30GB (takes way more than a day). It might be negligible for people with a lot of free space and very fast internet but for me, it worth it. Anyway, it looks like compressing those Windows 10 builds is not a solution to the problem...


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 PostPost subject: Re: Should we remove all Windows 10 releases?        Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:33 pm 
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ComputerHunter wrote:
When you have really slow internet and very limited disk space, it worth it. 30GB is a lot, I mean it, a lot and I would rather spend a day extracting files than downloading extra 30GB (takes way more than a day). It might be negligible for people with a lot of free space and very fast internet but for me, it worth it. Anyway, it looks like compressing those Windows 10 builds is not a solution to the problem...


Of course, I agree that there are still people with slow internet (including myself). However, the main question is if compressing a ton of releases is worth it on the BA side, where a lot of upload bandwidth would be spent in the process.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Should we remove all Windows 10 releases?        Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:57 pm 
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SVF patches are pretty good stuff. mrpijey is testing so let's wait.

I already have a lot of beta builds in SVF. This helps to save a lot of capacity(Up to 1/10).


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 PostPost subject: Re: Should we remove all Windows 10 releases?        Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:24 pm 
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ComputerHunter wrote:
Why don't you apply compression to the archive? In my opinion, even if the compression ratio is 99 percent and takes a long time to compress/decompress, it still worth it because collectively it will save a good amount of space and bandwidth. Some releases might get a much better compression ratio. If Windows 10 releases are to be removed, remove those released to the public.
Because then deduplication won't be effective, making the actual storage usage higher.

LoneCrusader wrote:
IMO, even older OEM recovery discs and older driver discs are more worthy of preservation at this point than Windows 10. Of course I'm one of those who will never use Windows 10 under any circumstances (unless I'm forced to troubleshoot something for someone I know, lol).
I would beg the differ here, the OEM recovery discs are not "original", i.e they are custom discs made by the OEM. The Windows 10 ISOs on the other hand are original from Microsoft, so from an "preserve all original stuff" point of view the OEM discs are less valuable.

Initial tests with SVF seems good, I've started to patch the newer Server builds and will go backwards until I reach Win10 (and perhaps earlier). All these releases with additional patches will for the time being get a [+] tag in the folder name. It's still work in progress and I need to find a good and automatic way of creating these patches, then we can also apply this on the betas to preserve more but use less space.

This also means archive size will shrink, so we might very well have a second 100TB milestone soon.... :).

Most people voted to keep the Win10 builds, so I will go both ways - keep them and shrink them at the same time, saving space. I am not sure if the overall storage usage will shrink, but it will be easier to manage. And I have to figure out a way to save the statistical info for these patches as well.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Should we remove all Windows 10 releases?        Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:49 pm 
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mrpijey wrote:
ComputerHunter wrote:
Why don't you apply compression to the archive? In my opinion, even if the compression ratio is 99 percent and takes a long time to compress/decompress, it still worth it because collectively it will save a good amount of space and bandwidth. Some releases might get a much better compression ratio. If Windows 10 releases are to be removed, remove those released to the public.
Because then deduplication won't be effective, making the actual storage usage higher.

LoneCrusader wrote:
IMO, even older OEM recovery discs and older driver discs are more worthy of preservation at this point than Windows 10. Of course I'm one of those who will never use Windows 10 under any circumstances (unless I'm forced to troubleshoot something for someone I know, lol).
I would beg the differ here, the OEM recovery discs are not "original", i.e they are custom discs made by the OEM. The Windows 10 ISOs on the other hand are original from Microsoft, so from an "preserve all original stuff" point of view the OEM discs are less valuable.

Initial tests with SVF seems good, I've started to patch the newer Server builds and will go backwards until I reach Win10 (and perhaps earlier). All these releases with additional patches will for the time being get a [+] tag in the folder name. It's still work in progress and I need to find a good and automatic way of creating these patches, then we can also apply this on the betas to preserve more but use less space.

This also means archive size will shrink, so we might very well have a second 100TB milestone soon.... :).

Most people voted to keep the Win10 builds, so I will go both ways - keep them and shrink them at the same time, saving space. I am not sure if the overall storage usage will shrink, but it will be easier to manage. And I have to figure out a way to save the statistical info for these patches as well.


So, how does this "SVF" patch thing work? I don't really understand this SVF business.

Can someone please explain this in a nutshell for me?

Would there be a way to install these builds like normal builds (clean installation)?


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 PostPost subject: Re: Should we remove all Windows 10 releases?        Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 2:23 pm 
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Windows Thunderstruck wrote:
So, how does this "SVF" patch thing work? I don't really understand this SVF business.

Delta patches, roughly said. You download the base build and a SVF file and use an utility to get the desired build.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Should we remove all Windows 10 releases?        Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 2:29 pm 
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The delta patch contains the differences between two files, so if you have the source file you can create the destination file by using the patch file.

For our releases I will include the command line client, a batch file as well as the client for MacOS and Linux (but no scripts) in the extras_tools.rar archive. So unpack that, put the source ISO and the patch file(s) you want to use and run the batch file and it will rebuild the ISOs. The patch files will be found in the media_svr.rar file.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Should we remove all Windows 10 releases?        Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 2:39 pm 
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What will happen to the non-English (and English UK) builds? I don't really want to see them go, because IMO, they are as significant as the English (US) versions.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Should we remove all Windows 10 releases?        Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 2:49 pm 
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Windows Thunderstruck wrote:
What will happen to the non-English (and English UK) builds? I don't really want to see them go, because IMO, they are as significant as the English (US) versions.

another languages(If present) are included as SVF patches. It's not just English.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Should we remove all Windows 10 releases?        Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:37 pm 
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Glad to hear that the patch system is working! Hopefully the space savings are worth it.
Would it be helpful at all for contributors to download a similar build and create a patch themselves for submission?

mrpijey wrote:
LoneCrusader wrote:
...even older OEM recovery discs and older driver discs are more worthy of preservation at this point than Windows 10...
I would beg the differ here, the OEM recovery discs are not "original", i.e they are custom discs made by the OEM. The Windows 10 ISOs on the other hand are original from Microsoft, so from an "preserve all original stuff" point of view the OEM discs are less valuable.

Agreed, MS Builds take priority.
I totally understand why archiving OEM discs on BA doesn't make much sense, but we should try to preserve them somewhere since they can be valuable for old/obscure drivers and patches, automatic configuration, nostalgia, etc. Some systems can be more finicky than others and not work properly with certain versions of certain drivers, or not have drivers available to download at all.
So thank you for uploading to archive.org, they've been really helpful and fun to play with!


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 PostPost subject: Re: Should we remove all Windows 10 releases?        Posted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:24 pm 
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Please don't delete the Windows 10 Anniversary Update and newer builds, as I need sometimes I use and install them in VMware Workstation! Thanks!

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 PostPost subject: Re: Should we remove all Windows 10 releases?        Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:24 am 
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Many people complain about Windows 10 releases? I think those people are a minority, just a very vocal one.

People also complain about how hard it is to get FTP access, yet BA never caved in but stood by its decision. I don't see why this should be different for Windows 10.

Do I personally care about any Windows 10 release on BA? No. And probably never will. Yet, preservation is preservation, and I wonder if ditching Windows 10 now will get BA into a situation that sets a precedent for removing more stuff in the future. And it will make even more people complain, because for every metric of "keep versions X, ditch versions Y", there will be someone who thinks that some release from Y is more important to keep than a different release from X. There will never be a consensus there.

So even though I see no use for me personally, I still vote to keep Windows 10 if in any way technically possible. I know that it takes up a lot of space (and time) that could otherwise be used for other releases, but still, BA is here to preserve, and that means keeping every single file even if nobody ever accessed it yet. What do we know what the researchers of the future aim to find in those Windows 10 releases in 10 years...?

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 PostPost subject: Re: Should we remove all Windows 10 releases?        Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 4:59 am 
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My thing is, let's say there is an average of 20 .iso per build. Assuming each is 3.5gb a piece, that equates to 70gb per build being conservative. And with the rapid release cycle that's going to cost a fair amount of storage. We've already seen the FTP climb in terabytes since 10's development and it's continuing so.
How many users are concerned with every language of every sku? Not very many.
Yes, the board is concerned with preservation, but does each and every single variant need to be easily accessible as an iso right now?

For FTP the patch idea, to me, is the option of best fit. This would cut drastically in bandwidth: e.g. a user wants to try out the home and pro versions of a build. Rather than download two 4gb .rar files, download one main 4gb .rar->.iso and one or two 400mb patch files to generate the the isos wanted. Now the bandwidth use cut almost in half.
And for the sake of preserving the isos, if resources permit, cold-store?

Remember, the board as a whole clearly wasn't concerned with preserving and providing the original .esd files. Which are far more "original" in a sense than the generated .iso.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Should we remove all Windows 10 releases?        Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:37 pm 
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I don't really mind later builds of 10 being deleted (pre-RTM should stay though, along with oddball labs like rs_xbox)
Though, the remaining builds should be using a high-compression file format (like tar.gz) to make the files for the disc as small as possible.

Overall, keep pre-RTM, oddball labs like rs_xbox, then with these builds use a file format like tar.gz which has a high compression algorithm.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Should we remove all Windows 10 releases?        Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:07 am 
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Neptruo314 wrote:
Though, the remaining builds should be using a high-compression file format (like tar.gz) to make the files for the disc as small as possible.

Compression is a non-option, since it makes deduplication not viable.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Should we remove all Windows 10 releases?        Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:36 am 
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How about compressing the patches itself? Still, it could reduce the size by ~1 percent and definitely worth it for people have slow internet.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Should we remove all Windows 10 releases?        Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:28 pm 
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Just sharing my thoughts:

Ideally, you would uncompress all those images, then run a backup utility on the entire set with compression enabled, and then only do incremental in the future. Unfortunately, Windows 10 use a single .wim file to put everything inside a single 3GB+ archive. Change to even a single file would make the entire archive completely different once compressed.

The only other thing to consider is the compressing tool used to lower the ISO file size. I would say either 7Z, RAR or ARC.

I tested a Windows 10 ISO I have, here are the results:

Original ISO size: 3,878,287,360 bytes
7z, ultra, LZMA2, 256MB, solid: 3,655,467,588 bytes
RAR V5, 1GB, best, solid: 3,407,243,715 bytes
ARC, level 9: 3,230,740,670 bytes

ARC provide a ~85% ratio. Not bad for an ISO I assume is already compressed to death. It's still 600MB less. Which is quite substantial.

The real issue is with forever incremental software will no hard version release. If you want to hold on *everything* Windows 10, be prepared to invest in petabyte level storage!

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