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 PostPost subject: "This News Is Old" Is GETTING Old        Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:46 pm 
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Okay, seriously. I've been on the forums for quite sometime since the dismay from OSBA, IM-Place, Glenda Corps and what not! But I've seen a HUGE amount of posts that spam the creators of a topic stating that a topic is OLD NEWS. Guess what? Some people don't go on their computers 24/7/365 a day and bookmark every single rumor or computer news website. We all lead busy lives and rarely have a chance to log on to see what's new with Windows 7, Snow Leopard, or the latest Linux distributions.

What I've learned from this forum, is that this place is a community of members for beta collecting and the discussion of beta prototypes. So why is that every flipping time I read a new topic about some new Windows 7 release, I end up reading a post that says "OLD!" "THIS WAS ALREADY DISCOVERED" or a link to another source related to the news? In my opinion, this is all getting very annoying and old.

I still haven't a clue what Windows 7 is all about, and reading these topics are all new to me. And guess what? I've been in the Windows prototype "scene" since 2003 or what not, and I've never seen such an increase in these spam posts. And if you think posting the topics that are old shouldn't count as contributing posts to go leech the servers, you are only doing the same by posting "THIS IS OLD NEWS! OMG YOU ARE A NOOB!!"

So what should be done? Well, for starters, the moderators are on the staff list for a reason, so stop spamming others users, newbies, or the ones actually posting topics and let the moderators and staff do THEIR job. I noticed the other day I was reading a topic and one suggested the removal of another user. Not only is that rude and selfish, it was done inappropriately and very unprofessionally. Just because you have a number of posts contributed to the site or a ranking as staff should not give you a "big-head" that you are above all, including Andy himself quite honestly. Andy has done a great job running the site, but lately, things have gotten out of hand.

Next, if you are posting a topic:
http://www.betaarchive.co.uk/forum/search.php

And if you are a member, please refresh yourself to this, as I just did today:
http://www.betaarchive.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4

It really only takes a few steps to see if the article already exists.

And for those members doing their jobs right, thank you for making this community and forum still a bookmark for me to visit daily. :)

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:32 pm 
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I am very new to the site, but really understand your sentiment.
From my first browsings here I felt there was a bit of an "old boys club" atmosphere pervading
It could be a direct consequence of the challenge to get into the "secret" site, of course. I am aware that the required postings are studied, and that entry is not automatic. Nevertheless, it does encourage aspiring mebers to post freely, whatever may enter there heads, to achieve the required number. This also includes reprinting from other sources, without references to that source.
In retirement my indoor hobby is almost entirely browsing help forums and, where able, giving input where I feel competent. To my astonishment, I have even found a full quote from one of my own postings here!
But, sidetracking a little your
"So why is that every flipping time I read a new topic about some new Windows 7 release, I end up reading a post that says "OLD!" "THIS WAS ALREADY DISCOVERED" or a link to another source related to the news?"
Well, don't you think this is an ego problem. They all want to be acknowleded as "in the Know"


I have a relation, who has a distant cousin, whose brother had a sister who met a Microsoft employee in a bar. The Microsoft employee knew someone who cleaned the new projects department in Microsoft.She was told that any Windows 7 releases sculling on the web at the moment were fakes as it had not got to the stage of being released outside Microsoft's office yet, in it's immaturity.
LOL


BUT THIS IS OLD NEWS!!


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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 7:03 pm 
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Well the one main problem is that some people are actually posting old news. A few of the Windows 7 posts that have been made (the most recent one about M1 R2) were two months old, and already spread out vastly through the internet (and even a thread or two here). Also there have been some people posting old general news, which has already made the rounds.

I don't think anyone is trying to be annoying or spamming, but then again I have been wrong before...


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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 7:08 pm 
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I'd better type up a lot of words about old news.
Guys did you know Firefox 3 was released??? Or Vista SP1 or Windows 7 betaleakalpha???????

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:33 am 
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A lot of said posts are mere attempts to get access to the ftps. If all they have to do is google 'os beta news' and copy and paste the first x links, what good is achieving a post count of 10? It waters down the value of contributing members.


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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:55 am 
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RentedMule wrote:
A lot of said posts are mere attempts to get access to the ftps. If all they have to do is google 'os beta news' and copy and paste the first x links, what good is achieving a post count of 10? It waters down the value of contributing members.


Exactly. If its old new, 99% of people ignore it anyway. I just removed about 75 members today with 0 posts and removed 2 spammers today. One replied to 11 topics with the same message and one insisted on making stupid posts in breech of the rules that he got deleted too. I'm not stupid, its not easy to get into the group and a lot of people underestimate that.

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 12:16 am 
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I think the point I was trying to make, even though all of your statements are factual and true, was the professionalism of the removal of a member and the hierarchy of a forum's staff to do their jobs rather than those below them. I believe if a "Member" ranked user thinks another user should be banned from the forums or the servers, then they should report them to a staff member by PM, rather than spam the forums themselves stating "OLD NEWS" or "IN BEFORE CLOSED" or "PLEASE BAN XXXXX." Don't you agree this is the correct thing to do? The spam topics thus encourage users to make useless posts like "Ooops, Sorry" or using the topic as a means of increasing their post count.

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 1:05 am 
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I am not a moderator, but I have been on the BetaScene for a while...

I believe the problems of spaming to gain FTP access has an easy remedy; Give a measure of public access to the files...

For example, upload a torrent with the entire FTP content (then we could save on hosting). Setup lots of Rapid-Share like mirrors? Maybe, offer all of Chicago as a public HTTP download?

In regards to quality of posts, one of the problems is lack of people. There is not much to say... Maybe we should all start flooding the news channel? I suppose if some measure of public acess is offered then more people will come and the board maybe more populated.

An alternative is to set the post count for FTP acess very high (50 or 100 posts). If somebody who is not a member makes 30 posts in a day their account will be autonomatically deleted. This way they will be forced to stay on the forum for a long enough time...

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:29 am 
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Frozenpport's suggestion is worth considering. It operates on two other sites I use. To a very large extent it discourages chancers. I would say the 100 rather than 50.
Perhaps it could also be a deterrent to make a rule that one has tobe a subscriber?


Last edited by davehc on Thu Jul 03, 2008 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:33 am 
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Well, the other issue at hand is that increasing posts will only increase the amount of spam posts and the amount of work the staff has to do to deal with the "new" users. 100 does seem challenging to a novice forum member, as it cause the user to give up trying to reach the FTP servers due to the slap-in-the-face of having to contribute so many posts.

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 7:36 am 
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On the one hand I agree with troyoda1990, for a new member its very hard to get 50 or 100 contributing posts, but on the other hand I think that it is necessary to raise the required posts. There are a lot of people who join here, try to get access to the servers and then they don't give a flying [censored] about the community - In my honest opinion it is better to increase the posts and reckon that there might be less new members, than having hundreds of these "never-posting-again-people".

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 10:32 am 
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Daniel wrote:
On the one hand I agree with troyoda1990, for a new member its very hard to get 50 or 100 contributing posts, but on the other hand I think that it is necessary to raise the required posts. There are a lot of people who join here, try to get access to the servers and then they don't give a flying [censored] about the community - In my honest opinion it is better to increase the posts and reckon that there might be less new members, than having hundreds of these "never-posting-again-people".


Maybe it is time to increase the number of posts. Twice in the last fortnight, I have removed about 75 new members with 0 posts and several spammers who insist on not reading the rules and spamming the forum in an attempt to "undermine" me and the staff. However, its amazing that 99% of people who come and post do actually manage to get their 10 posts on the first try which I find quite good.

The only problem with increasing the post count is that it will put extra load on me, since I have to check more posts, it will also increase the spam as mentioned with people trying to get access, and it will also detir people from even coming to the site. Their attitude will be "pfft xx posts, can't be bothered with that, I'll go else where". We want people to come to the site while balancing the number of posts needed to get access.

I tried setting up a public and limited version of the server for people. It was taken down within days because of it being abused. People simply could not read rules or couldn't follow them. The server got hammered and I took it down. Easy. The people who get access to the members group rarely hammer the server and when they do its either lightly, as in 1 extra user than they're allowed or by accident entirely. They don't usually bother me.

The other thing is, I've hardly seen any moderation from the moderators in the last few weeks. Sure I accept some of them are in college or university and have exams (pr0gram for example) but some aren't and have spare time. Remember guys, you took on the roll and took the responsibility. If you're not up to the job I'll have to replace you with someone who is. I have quite a few people in mind who would be suitable for the moderators position (naming nobody yet).

So come on guys, help me out.

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:48 pm 
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Andy wrote:
.......The only problem with increasing the post count is that it will put extra load on me, since I have to check more posts, it will also increase the spam as mentioned with people trying to get access, and it will also detir people from even coming to the site. Their attitude will be "pfft xx posts, can't be bothered with that, I'll go else where". We want people to come to the site while balancing the number of posts needed to get access..........
Here brings in an idea for the forums by setting up a new type staff quite possibly. A new staff position could be created in which certain members of the board could "hover" over "Pending Trialist Members" posts to determine whether or not the user is worthy of becoming a full member. What would happen is these staff members would not have full moderating status or permissions, but the ability to simply watch over the community along with modifying these posts. If a user is found to be worthy of an upgrade (after 50 posts, or even after a few posts), then the member could be "forwarded" to Andy to officially upgrade them to a member. Or let's say an old retiree returns, like KenOath for example, and starts with only 0 posts, then because of historical posting on the forums, they would automatically be enlisted to the Members group.

However, there CAN be a downside to this one specific staff member as stated in Andy's post above. This would be a load on the "Pending Staff" as they would make a number of decisions of whether the user should remain or not. Let's say they seem alright, and tell Andy go ahead and make them a Member, later to find out they never post again and leech the servers? That's another risk, but all-in-all, seems reasonable in helping Andy and the moderating staff out.

Keep in mind also, there is a time difference when there is activity on the board. Some members reside in the UK area during the day, but then some live in the US area (Western Hemisphere) while it's night.

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:17 pm 
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Andy wrote:
The other thing is, I've hardly seen any moderation from the moderators in the last few weeks. Sure I accept some of them are in college or university and have exams (pr0gram for example) but some aren't and have spare time. Remember guys, you took on the roll and took the responsibility. If you're not up to the job I'll have to replace you with someone who is. I have quite a few people in mind who would be suitable for the moderators position (naming nobody yet).

Sorry i've been busy for the last couple of weeks but its back to normal again now for me.


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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:31 am 
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How about the moderators do some moderating (no offense) and help Andy out by verifying posts and then sending Andy a PM saying "x is elligble for the download group, y isn't because most of their 10 posts are spam"

Although that means either 1) users PMing moderators themselves 2) setting up a group thing but thent hat would send a PM to all users in the group (which would be moderators and Andy) but then again, I think 2) is a PHPBB3 only feature).

:^)

PS: Maybe its time for a moderator change? I hardly see any on here anymore... the ones I see (From time to time) would be mrpijey, Vista R2, empireum and thats about it.


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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 5:05 am 
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One reason that I don't moderate stuff all that much (as well as other commitments with school etc) is that moderators can't really do much more than move, lock and delete threads ... it would be really beneficial if we could ban users and add/remove people from the Members group ourselves. I'm not saying we should have admin privileges (that would be stupid :P), but if we could ban users when they do something wrong, then the forum might work a bit more efficiently. The only problem is phpBB doesn't really let moderators do much... to be able to add these kinds of things we'd have to install a heap of mods (which won't happen), or upgrade to a better forum system like SMF (which I'd really like to see happen, but probably won't).

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:00 pm 
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happy dude wrote:
PS: Maybe its time for a moderator change? I hardly see any on here anymore... the ones I see (From time to time) would be mrpijey, Vista R2, empireum and thats about it.

Sorry but that pissed me off a little bit. Kick the other guys off because you don't see them online?


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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:03 pm 
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Beta Freak wrote:
happy dude wrote:
PS: Maybe its time for a moderator change? I hardly see any on here anymore... the ones I see (From time to time) would be mrpijey, Vista R2, empireum and thats about it.

Sorry but that [censored] me off a little bit. Kick the other guys off because you don't see them online?


I visit the forum several times a day and thats all I see anymore. You may want to remember that I'm also in a completely different timezone so thats probably why I never see you...?


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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:29 pm 
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Ah yeah, didn't see the Australia bit. Sorry about that.


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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:39 pm 
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No worries.


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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:59 pm 
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Let's start banning people instead of removing them, like replace their avatar with a message saying they were banned.

If people see posts by banned people they might be more careful knowing they can be banned and I would enjoy seeing a terrible post and the banned avatar next to it.

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 5:17 pm 
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happy dude wrote:
How about the moderators do some moderating (no offense) and help Andy out by verifying posts and then sending Andy a PM saying "x is elligble for the download group, y isn't because most of their 10 posts are spam"

Although that means either 1) users PMing moderators themselves 2) setting up a group thing but thent hat would send a PM to all users in the group (which would be moderators and Andy) but then again, I think 2) is a PHPBB3 only feature).

:^)

PS: Maybe its time for a moderator change? I hardly see any on here anymore... the ones I see (From time to time) would be mrpijey, Vista R2, empireum and thats about it.
I'm sorry if I can't be on here every day all day. I've got things to do that are a little more important than trolling a forum...

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 11:46 pm 
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All ideas are good ideas, but remember, everyone here is a member because they are interested in what BA offers. No moderator gets any payment for the time they put in, and most members can't even realise the kind of workload Andy (and some active mods) have to run this site, nor would they care much as long as they get their betas...

Regardless which solution is applied (increase contributing posts, special member groups, banning etc) it will increase the workload on all the forum staff. And as some pointed out above, we don't have the entire days to sit around and moderating the forums. I sure don't... I try to read every posts made here, but frankly, a lot of posts are too uninteresting to read, and to read them all would take a lot of time. So I read what I can, and if i see something unfitting I'll moderate. And moderators can't sit around 24/7 either, so we'll have some mods in different timezones that try to do their part when possible.

If BA was a paying job then it would be completely different. We would employ some professional moderators that logged in between fixed hours and kept everything clean. But that's now how it works now, and we can't DEMAND everyone to stay on for x hours every day. Andy employed some ppl he can trust to moderate the forum, and if anyone is not doing his or her part I bet Andy would take care of it. But regardless, any solution would require more work. Increasing minimum posts a bit (perhaps not 100 posts, but at least 20-30) would help some, but it will also increase Andy's load. Decrease it and spammers will have a field day. Add different subforums and all moderators and Andy will chase after you with burning pitchforks... or quality decreases further because no one can bother to do all the increased amount of work.

It's a very hard solution really. One perhaps easier solution atm would be to limit the way people can post news, since it's the easiest way atm for new members to spam their way up. One other way (which is harder) would be to merge some forums to allow members to get a better scope of topics, and also limiting the amount of different forums for people to spam in. But that's just a theory... However more forums will only increase the time for everyone to keep up with the posts.

Increase the minimum limit slightly, decrease users access to post in news forum (employ some pros for this instead) and the workload should balance out in our (the mods and Andy's) favor methinks. 10 posts is too easy, spamming news is too easy. There will always be morons on the forum trying to cheat their way up, and we won't get rid of those, but we can always limit their chances to spam their way to access.

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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:47 am 
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Sorry to throw my two cents into a topic that is both a little old and none of my buisness, but why not restrict the topics that count as contributing posts. Like the news prob for example, people wouldnt spam the news section with old news, if posts in that section did not count towards member status.
Mabye even go so far as to say that only posts in the general and technical discussion and support sections count towards contrubuting?


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 PostPost subject:        Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 5:26 pm 
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jabster wrote:
Mabye even go so far as to say that only posts in the general and technical discussion and support sections count towards contrubuting?

If we're feeling really adventurous we could perhaps suggest that only posts which Andy considers contributing would count towards contributing posts!

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