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 PostPost subject: Re: [Debate] The future of the wiki        Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:11 pm 
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As previously stated your missing WHY it's dead. Because of that mentality that's shown by too many people on the forum.

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 PostPost subject: Re: [Debate] The future of the wiki        Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:17 pm 
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gabegriggs1 wrote:
As previously stated your missing WHY it's dead. Because of that mentality that's shown by too many people on the forum.

Why would you want to edit on a wiki with people of THIS mentality? And the fact that the most active users just C&P stuff and think it's ok. Including you.

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Last edited by LilShootDawg on Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 PostPost subject: Re: [Debate] The future of the wiki        Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:21 pm 
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Sometimes information can not be had inside the mind by the user editing the page, and I do agree the copypasta is not okay.
Therefore I believe someone editing needs to utilize common research writing standards with citations etc. when information is obtained from reliable outside sources.

EDIT: If there was to be a moderation/qc system in place, then it would be a duty of those staff to ensure these quality standards are met. And when they are not, and repeatedly not by the same user, then notification to said user and certain action should be taken. Remember, as small traffic as the wiki page gets, it still managed to get the eyes of the Wikimedia foundation to request a change as small as the wiki link icon. So bear in mind, people you don't think read it read it. And absurd as it may sound, we don't want to wind up with a copyright violation in the most minute of area, attracting attention to other gray areas of this community especially with new EU laws coming into play.

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 PostPost subject: Re: [Debate] The future of the wiki        Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:49 pm 
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My current opinion on the state is pretty blank. The few times I have used the Wiki was mostly to look for a specific serial for a beta build, or just to quickly get a list of beta builds. Not to downplay the efforts made, but that is information that's also available elsewhere, including on BetaWiki, which is more active than this Wiki if posts in this thread are to be believed. If the Wiki disappeared tomorrow, I wouldn't mind it to be brutally honest. That said, I would applaud anyone's attempts and efforts at expanding the Wiki, but again, to be honest, I have my doubts about whether the effort will truly be worth it, given most sharing of information in this community is seemingly, well, right here on the forums, and perhaps on the Discord (which I'm not in, so I can't comment on). Whether or not it's more difficult to become a Wiki contributer right now, if the community really wanted an active Wiki to go with it, I would assume this would have already been attempted on a larger scale. And the current state doesn't seem to reflect this. But I'm no fortune teller, so who knows if developments in this thread can absolutely prove my ideas wrong. I do certainly hope they do for those with more interest in Wikis.

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 PostPost subject: Re: [Debate] The future of the wiki        Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:59 pm 
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I feel like there's bit of a conflict going on here. I mean, yes, the BetaArchive Wiki may seem like it's slowly dying, but I'm sure it's still standing well. I have to agree with some of the people in this topic, that we have just been getting the admins and some of the other staff little stressed with this debate about how the BA Wiki is probably dying. And yes, BA Wiki and BetaWiki may have a bit of competition, mostly because BetaWiki has been more active, and has open registrations unlike BA's wiki, which you have to contact Andy to get an account there (that's actually for a good reason though, if you read the wiki's about page), but I doubt that really means it's "dying".

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 PostPost subject: Re: [Debate] The future of the wiki        Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:25 am 
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As mentioned on the mrp's post, one problem is people who wants to help but doesn't know how. For example, I initially wanted to help, but there are some "things" that we can't agree on. And I want to make it clear, I'm open to anything members may suggest, but please be clear but respectful, (in other words, don't speak in defensive mode)

There are some members (like me) who want to help with the wiki, but don't have enough knowledge about how a wiki works, and the unwelcoming attitude from several members leaves a bitter mouth taste and makes us wish to have never bothered to even ask, if we had known that our help wouldn't be appreciated.

Also, please forgive my English (It's directed to u, LilDawg), as I'm not a native English speaker, but I can communicate and give a bit of help, which again seems unappreciated.

Just so much makes us feel that the little help we provide is useless, thanks to the toxic side of the community.

And even so, I'm decided to help with what I can (and I'm sure that many other members are also), heck, even I could research about the wiki, or look at current pages, and waste a bit of my life in learning how to code a more beautiful wiki. But if I know that my help will be unappreciated, I don't think I'd help.

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 PostPost subject: Re: [Debate] The future of the wiki        Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:46 am 
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SistemaRayoXP wrote:
As mentioned on the mrp's post, one problem is people who wants to help but doesn't know how. For example, I initially wanted to help, but there are some "things" that we can't agree on. And I want to make it clear, I'm open to anything members may suggest, but please be clear but respectful, (in other words, don't speak in defensive mode)

There are some members (like me) who want to help with the wiki, but don't have enough knowledge about how a wiki works, and the unwelcoming attitude from several members leaves a bitter mouth taste and makes us wish to have never bothered to even ask, if we had known that our help wouldn't be appreciated.

Also, please forgive my English (It's directed to u, LilDawg), as I'm not a native English speaker, but I can communicate and give a bit of help, which again seems unappreciated.

Just so much makes us feel that the little help we provide is useless, thanks to the toxic side of the community.

And even so, I'm decided to help with what I can (and I'm sure that many other members are also), heck, even I could research about the wiki, or look at current pages, and waste a bit of my life in learning how to code a more beautiful wiki. But if I know that my help will be unappreciated, I don't think I'd help.


You’re right! And these actions shy away others from helping out. This toxicity needs to leave if we want to be successful in anything here.

You people need to get ahold of your emotions and think before you speak. A lot of you don’t seem to be real great at that. You’re just causing more problems than it’s worth and to be frank it’s plain wrong.

You all make the people who created this site and those who contribute to it (including myself) feel under appreciated therefore discouraging us from bringing new leaks, awesome website changes, and so on.

And this happens with leaks as well. You guys scare away a lot of people with your selfish desires to get leaks “right now” instead of giving the person time to get it properly uploaded when they have the opportunity. You guys are the kind of people who ruin sites like this. If this is ticking you off then maybe it should be. You guys need to realize there is more here than your selfish desires and senseless complaining without action over things that don’t matter in the long run. Really, we’re lucky this site even exists and it seems to me that you all don’t appreciate it enough. What if BA suddenly disappeared? What would you do then?

So many people with potential leave this site after they see that kind of shameful and disrespectful posts therefore robbing us and yourselves of possible new leaks.

If you want me to find examples of this stuff I will. It shouldn’t be hard with the amount of times you all act this way. This is not how a site should run, ever.


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 PostPost subject: Re: [Debate] The future of the wiki        Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:49 am 
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I personally haven't really bothered using the BA Wiki in years, instead going to https://thecollectionbook.info . It's clean, has the info you need, and screenshots too. The BA Wiki might be able to be cleaned up, expanded, and saved, but it's not great right now. I just took a quick trip to the BA Wiki Windows 98 section, and a bunch of pages were blank or had virtually no info.

It's probably not worth the time and resources it would take to fix the Wiki.

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 PostPost subject: Re: [Debate] The future of the wiki        Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:19 am 
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It's your decision, Jim. If you don't want to bother, feel free to do so.

But if you'd really like to help us, and this goes to ANYONE who REALLY wants to help (and that could help for more than just 2 months before going into the shadows), feel free and be welcome to help the BetaArchive Wiki to be a better place for everyone.

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 PostPost subject: Re: [Debate] The future of the wiki        Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:40 am 
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SistemaRayoXP wrote:
It's your decision, Jim. If you don't want to bother, feel free to do so.

But if you'd really like to help us, and this goes to ANYONE who REALLY wants to help (and that could help for more than just 2 months before going into the shadows), feel free and be welcome to help the BetaArchive Wiki to be a better place for everyone.
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 PostPost subject: Re: [Debate] The future of the wiki        Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:46 am 
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Part of the big wiki problem is there isn't much of a base to it right now and not much of a reason to build one. To really get a wiki going there needs to be some kind of foundation people will want to expand from. At it is, just hitting random page there's a whole lot of nothing. Once you get something good going, it's easier to get people to contribute. Hardest part is finding the small handful of very knowledgeable people willing to start something.

A good place to look is something like the Deskthority Wiki. It's reasonably active and considered the de facto wiki for keyboards. A few really passionate users worked hard on building a base and people contributed from there. Occasionally a contest to help promote both the wiki and encourage activity. One I remember was a partnership with Cooler Master to promote adding good images to the articles. Users would either add or take new pictures for articles with poor/missing pictures and the winners got some goodies.


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 PostPost subject: Re: [Debate] The future of the wiki        Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:58 am 
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And this lack of information and of people with knowledge as compgeke stated makes the wiki hard to work on.

This made me think, how could be handled to take info from 3rd party sources like Wikipedia, or even TheCollectionBook? Of course, we're talking only of taking little info with our own words, and not just copy-pasting an entire article.

Also we could take inspiration from some other wiki to give a general format to the wiki, example:
An article must have at least these sections: builds, history, installation instructions, software compatibility, hardware compatibility, gallery.

Or anything like that so we know what we should add to an article (only as a mere template, which could be expanded as the case and needs grow)

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 PostPost subject: Re: [Debate] The future of the wiki        Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:49 am 
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I think I have already stated my willingness to help by offering to be a sysop here and providing assistance on the technical side wherever possible. I have already migrated (actually copied; it's the mods' turn to now delete the forum copies) some of the guides on the forum to this wiki, have made deletion tagging easier, and also transcluded the main page. Remember that contribution to the wiki is not just about writing content.

Another thing which I think is part of the admins' reluctance is inactivity. On large wikis, when one admin is inactive, others usually step in to do the work (and their inactivity policies are often quite generous). However, when the only admins are the forum administrators, that's not an option. In the wikis which I'm most active in, admins are elected by community consensus, not by one person's viewpoint on who should be trusted. But again I can't say on how relevant that would be in a wiki like this. With growth this shouldn't be a problem though.

And mrpijey, I get it, you're heated and annoyed at us. And I can sympathise with you to a good extent - which is partially why I just absorbed your recent rant at me. But do realise the fact that I am saying all this because I want it to improve; do I have to bother with all this? I indeed didn't - until I saw the improvement in the main page.
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SistemaRayoXP wrote:
It's your decision, Jim. If you don't want to bother, feel free to do so.
But if you'd really like to help us, and this goes to ANYONE who REALLY wants to help (and that could help for more than just 2 months before going into the shadows), feel free and be welcome to help the BetaArchive Wiki to be a better place for everyone.
I wrote:
https://thecollectionbook.info

He was referring to whether you'd help this wiki.
SistemaRayoXP wrote:
As mentioned on the mrp's post, one problem is people who wants to help but doesn't know how. For example, I initially wanted to help, but there are some "things" that we can't agree on. And I want to make it clear, I'm open to anything members may suggest, but please be clear but respectful, (in other words, don't speak in defensive mode)
There are some members (like me) who want to help with the wiki, but don't have enough knowledge about how a wiki works, and the unwelcoming attitude from several members leaves a bitter mouth taste and makes us wish to have never bothered to even ask, if we had known that our help wouldn't be appreciated.
Also, please forgive my English (It's directed to u, LilDawg), as I'm not a native English speaker, but I can communicate and give a bit of help, which again seems unappreciated.
Just so much makes us feel that the little help we provide is useless, thanks to the toxic side of the community.
And even so, I'm decided to help with what I can (and I'm sure that many other members are also), heck, even I could research about the wiki, or look at current pages, and waste a bit of my life in learning how to code a more beautiful wiki. But if I know that my help will be unappreciated, I don't think I'd help.

If you need any technical help with MediaWiki, please message me (either publicly on my wiki talk page or privately on the forum), and I'll see how I can help.
gabegriggs1 wrote:
As previously stated your missing WHY it's dead. Because of that mentality that's shown by too many people on the forum.

I should take this as an opportunity to highlight some of the edit summaries (see the recent changes):
LilShootDawg wrote:
nice job making it look ugly

LilShootDawg wrote:
fixed your broken lazy page copying

Please stop such rudeness, thanks.


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 PostPost subject: Re: [Debate] The future of the wiki        Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:57 am 
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x010 wrote:
gabegriggs1 wrote:
As previously stated your missing WHY it's dead. Because of that mentality that's shown by too many people on the forum.

I should take this as an opportunity to highlight some of the edit summaries (see the recent changes):
LilShootDawg wrote:
nice job making it look ugly

LilShootDawg wrote:
fixed your broken lazy page copying

Please stop such rudeness, thanks.


And this is exactly my point. This is a huge underlying issue with many members of this site that no one has talked about until this thread.


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 PostPost subject: Re: [Debate] The future of the wiki        Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:21 pm 
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Context.
LilShootDawg wrote:
nice job making it look ugly

Whoever made the prev edit made it have a huge blank space in the main page.
LilShootDawg wrote:
fixed your broken lazy page copying

I removed the “Under construction” picture for the main page because I fixed it in like 20 minutes.
Context matters. Also I’m sorry for being honest.

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 PostPost subject: Re: [Debate] The future of the wiki        Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:21 pm 
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It seems some members want the wiki, and some question if the wiki should survive. If we have members willing to take on the challenge and take charge of the wiki, help tie it to our database and moderate it then let's give them a chance as we have nothing to lose really. And remember, it's not all about Microsoft stuff since you all mention BetaWiki and whatnot and say that they are much better etc. Yes they are better today, but our wiki is to also cover other stuff AS WELL as the Microsoft stuff. And I don't see a problem reusing content from other wikis as long as a proper source reference is added to those pages. Then we honor those sites as well as open up for edits of our own. And we can add with unique content that will never end up on those other wikis since we do much more than MS Windows betas.

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 PostPost subject: Re: [Debate] The future of the wiki        Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:46 pm 
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From what I know, BetaWiki does have articles on non-Microsoft stuff as well.

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 PostPost subject: Re: [Debate] The future of the wiki        Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:51 pm 
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Battler wrote:
From what I know, BetaWiki does have articles on non-Microsoft stuff as well.


It does. I'm not sure where this idea that BetaWiki is only about Microsoft stuff comes from, or why it's being continuously reinforced here on the forum, since that wasn't BetaWiki's original purpose nor was it ever officially stated as its mission.

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 PostPost subject: Re: [Debate] The future of the wiki        Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:54 pm 
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LilShootDawg wrote:
Also I’m sorry for being honest.

There's a difference between (blunt) honesty and straight up being rude. But honestly, having seen your posts on the forum, this doesn't surprise me, as you seem to go out of your way to be rude to other users. Maybe you should work on that, it clearly isn't appreciated.

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 PostPost subject: Re: [Debate] The future of the wiki        Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:51 pm 
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 PostPost subject: Re: [Debate] The future of the wiki        Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:18 am 
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LilShootDawg, your behaviour in this thread is unacceptable. Knock it off. There's a fine line between honesty and rudeness.

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 PostPost subject: Re: [Debate] The future of the wiki        Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:17 pm 
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I believe another reason for why the BetaArchive Wiki may seem dead (even though it's probably not) is because of registrations being disabled. I heard that the wiki used to be packed with open registrations and anyone could have the ability to edit pages, but that all seemed to die down when Andy put a restriction on that, which is not really worth fighting for, because I can't make up Andy's mind on stuff, no one can. Since then, many people started moving to BetaWiki, where things like that are a little more relaxed, and BetaWiki does seem to have a bit better quality information on lots of Windows betas and other good stuff.

JimOlive wrote:
I personally haven't really bothered using the BA Wiki in years, instead going to https://thecollectionbook.info . It's clean, has the info you need, and screenshots too. The BA Wiki might be able to be cleaned up, expanded, and saved, but it's not great right now. I just took a quick trip to the BA Wiki Windows 98 section, and a bunch of pages were blank or had virtually no info.

I have to agree with you on that. I like to check out The Collection Book for Windows betas, because that site, kind of like BetaWiki, has top-quality information on every beta known to man. I do recommend both BetaWiki and The Collection Book for comprehensive information on beta builds. Nathan's Toasty Technology (ToastyTech) also has comprehensive information on older GUIs.

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 PostPost subject: Re: [Debate] The future of the wiki        Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:48 pm 
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JonathonWyble wrote:
I heard that the wiki used to be packed with open registrations and anyone could have the ability to edit pages, but that all seemed to die down when Andy put a restriction on that,

The problem was, that the BA Wiki, when it was more open, suffered from a lot of vandalism, hence why access had to be restricted.

Edit: I would like to request a BA Wiki account, if possible.

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 PostPost subject: Re: [Debate] The future of the wiki        Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:55 pm 
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The BetaArchive Wiki, yes, we should keep it, because you never know if all of a sudden BetaWiki gets taken down, or something which i'm guessing wouldn't happen anytime soon or if there are people out there that still contribute, just very little.

But maybe for a week, try to leave it open for everyone to edit, just the pages, not the main page and see what happens, I know there has been vandalism, but maybe we can try it?

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 PostPost subject: Re: [Debate] The future of the wiki        Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:10 pm 
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The Meow_2004 suggestion is good. That happened when BA was more active. Nowadays BA is a bit more relaxed in comparison, so maybe trying leaving it open for a week might work well

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