Windows 10 Sucks

Discuss Windows Vista, 7, 8.x, 10 and Windows Server 2008, 2008R2, 2012, 2016, 2019, Home Server, SBS 2008, SBS 2011.
daemonspudguy
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Re: Windows 10 Sucks

Post by daemonspudguy »

Maza wrote:I would rather install, say, IrfanView from the Windows Store than from some location on the Internet.
That sounds insane, and looking at listings like 8zip (a dubious clone of 7zip) should be more then enough proof that the only site you could 100% trust would be the developers' site.

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Re: Windows 10 Sucks

Post by Maza »

daemonspudguy wrote:If no one had opinions, the world would be boring af.
That itself is only an opinion.
daemonspudguy wrote:Also, any knowledgeable user knows Windows 10 is horrendously tracking everything.
This is not a refutation of my previous comments to the contrary. What's more, any user who installs the Diagnostic Data Viewer can observe the telemetry that is being collected and transmitted by Windows 10.
Last edited by Maza on Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Windows 10 Sucks

Post by Maza »

daemonspudguy wrote:That sounds insane,
Why?
daemonspudguy wrote:and looking at listings like 8zip (a dubious clone of 7zip) should be more then enough proof that the only site you could 100% trust would be the developers' site.
8 Zip is not a dubious clone of 7-Zip (or really even a clone of any software). It is—or rather was—originally developed for Windows 8 and uses the platform features (hence the name). It is an application I have purchased.

And of course there are issues with your statement that one could have absolute trust in ("you could 100% trust") a developer's own website. Files and websites can be—and are—respectively infected and hacked.
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AlphaBeta
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Re: Windows 10 Sucks

Post by AlphaBeta »

Maza wrote:
.NETLover3790 wrote:Windows Store apps just suck up hard disk space. [...] No wonder most of the built-in ones are gone in Windows 10 LTSB and Server 2016.
As does any application that is installed. Despite this, applications that could not be removed in previous versions of Windows (e.g., Calculator) can be removed in Windows 10.
Removed, as in actually removed from the system, or is it using the good old IE trick of only removing shortcuts?
Maza wrote:
.NETLover3790 wrote:There's no reason to use the Store anyway to find programs, just find applications yourself on the greater internet or buy them from a store.
That is absolutely untrue. There is nothing wrong with a centralized repository for applications, so long as control is ultimately not taken from the user (in the case of Windows 10, it has not been). Windows Store applications provide benefits over their Win32 counterparts (primarily in regard to maintenance and servicing). I would rather install, say, IrfanView from the Windows Store than from some location on the Internet.
The Windows Store benefits you are talking about are the general pros of package management. I am pretty sure that one can operate a service that would serve appx packages and create a client that makes sure that the installed packages are up to date, completely avoiding the Windows Store infrastructure, while enjoying the exactly same benefits.

There is one thing wrong with a centralized repository, in that it allows the platform owner to control what software can be used on the platform by introducing certain policies, e.g. the Store policies mandate that applications must use the Edge engine for browsing the web. Considering the current political climate, I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft started delisting apps due to their developers having the "wrong" opinion.
Maza wrote:
daemonspudguy wrote:and looking at listings like 8zip (a dubious clone of 7zip) should be more then enough proof that the only site you could 100% trust would be the developers' site.
8 Zip is not a dubious clone of 7-Zip (or really even a clone of any software). It is—or rather was—originally developed for Windows 8 and uses the platform features (hence the name). It is an application I have purchased.
No matter what the meaning behind the name is, the name similarity (which was presumably not coincidental) really makes it sound like a cheap rip-off of 7-Zip. You could just as easily say that "NOKLA" phones are named after a town in India.
Maza wrote:And of course there are issues with your statement that one could have absolute trust in ("you could 100% trust") a developer's own website. Files and websites can be—and are—respectively infected and hacked.
I hear of fake malicious apps downloaded by millions of users from app stores every other month. What's your point? No platform is 100% secure. Of course, a self-hosted site will not be as secure as Windows Store, but the developer can still choose to upload his application files onto GitHub or other similar service, where they are just as unlikely to be tampered with.
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Re: Windows 10 Sucks

Post by Maza »

AlphaBeta wrote:Removed, as in actually removed from the system, or is it using the good old IE trick of only removing shortcuts?
A rhetorical question or a loaded question from you? Of course, say, the Calculator is removed.
AlphaBeta wrote:The Windows Store benefits you are talking about are the general pros of package management. I am pretty sure that one can operate a service that would serve appx packages and create a client that makes sure that the installed packages are up to date, completely avoiding the Windows Store infrastructure, while enjoying the exactly same benefits.
I am of course aware of such, but it is not really applicable to end users—that is to say, the vast majority surely do not perform these or other tasks—which is why they were not mentioned. It is thus the Store in this regard that provides these benefits to consumers.
AlphaBeta wrote:There is one thing wrong with a centralized repository, in that it allows the platform owner to control what software can be used on the platform by introducing certain policies
You will see that I wrote that there is nothing wrong with a centralized repository so long as control is not taken from the user. Further, you will see that control is not taken away from the user in regard to this example policy.
AlphaBeta wrote:Considering the current political climate, I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft started delisting apps due to their developers having the "wrong" opinion.
Oh?
AlphaBeta wrote:No matter what the meaning behind the name is, the name similarity (which was presumably not coincidental) really makes it sound like a cheap rip-off of 7-Zip. You could just as easily say that "NOKLA" phones are named after a town in India.
I do not even care. The user should do at least a little research before writing of—no, criticizing—things of which he is unaware.
AlphaBeta wrote:I hear of fake malicious apps downloaded by millions of users from app stores every other month. What's your point?
What is your point? I read of those incidents as well. My point was that he is incorrect, that one cannot absolutely trust a developer's website—and that does not imply that one can absolutely trust any application repository.
AlphaBeta wrote:Of course, a self-hosted site will not be as secure as Windows Store, but the developer can still choose to upload his application files onto GitHub or other similar service, where they are just as unlikely to be tampered with.
I argue that they are not just as unlikely when one reviews security incidents of the past (e.g., Classic Shell at FOSSHub).
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MCpillager12
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Re: Windows 10 Sucks

Post by MCpillager12 »

Windows 10 has another thing which you might be concerned with. It has intrusive real-time protection in windows defender, which makes real-time protection turn on without any note.

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Re: Windows 10 Sucks

Post by Maza »

MCpillager12 wrote:Windows 10 has another thing which you might be concerned with. It has intrusive real-time protection in windows defender, which makes real-time protection turn on without any note.
Personal thoughts aside, how is this intrusive (especially if it really is enabled again "without any note")? Why would one want to—why should one—be operating without at least some level of protection from malicious activity? It is not as though it cannot be temporarily disabled should the need arise.
Last edited by Maza on Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Windows 10 Sucks

Post by win32 »

What I don't get about Windows Defender is that a custom scan for *one* folder ends up scanning my entire data partition.

On the OS partition it works properly.

I haven't noticed such a blatant bug in Windows 2000, XP, 2003 and 7.
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Re: Windows 10 Sucks

Post by Maza »

win32 wrote:What I don't get about Windows Defender is that a custom scan for *one* folder ends up scanning my entire data partition.

On the OS partition it works properly.

I haven't noticed such a blatant bug in Windows 2000, XP, 2003 and 7.
This does not happen in Windows Vista.
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DVINTHEHOUSEMAN
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Re: Windows 10 Sucks

Post by DVINTHEHOUSEMAN »

I think Defender was introduced in Vista and not 2K
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Re: Windows 10 Sucks

Post by Random_User »

It was included with Windows Vista, but was also offered as a download for Windows XP. Some prerelease versions of Windows Defender could also run on Windows 2000.

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Re: Windows 10 Sucks

Post by AlphaBeta »

Remember that Windows Defender in Windows 10 is based on MSE and not the old Vista one.
Maza wrote:Why would one want to—why should one—be operating without at least some level of protection from malicious activity?
Some people don't need antivirus software to tell them that video.mp4.exe is malicious. From my experience, it's quite hard to contract malware these days, unless you try very hard.

Not to mention that Defender can be disabled permanently in Group Policy. I believe that's a nice middle ground between allowing tech illiterates mistakenly disable their antivirus and forcing an antivirus down tech literates' throats. Tech literates should know the way, and the others probably shouldn't be carrying out any business in here.
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Re: Windows 10 Sucks

Post by Maza »

AlphaBeta wrote:Some people don't need antivirus software to tell them that video.mp4.exe is malicious.
Such malicious activity is not limited to such seemingly obvious files. Nevertheless, I did not write or mean to imply that everyone needed it, but for the vast majority—for the ignorant—however, I believe the decision regarding mandatory real-time protection to be wise.
AlphaBeta wrote:From my experience, it's quite hard to contract malware these days, unless you try very hard.
This is not an argument and it does not bolster your argument. I could write—although it would be fabrication—that it is incredibly easy for me to be infected and, therefore, mean the decision is beneficial and necessary for everyone. It would be just as illogical as your comment about your experience.
AlphaBeta wrote:Not to mention that Defender can be disabled permanently in Group Policy.
Since the venerable Windows Vista. There really is no reason to be "concerned" about it being "intrusive" then, is there?
AlphaBeta wrote:I believe that's a nice middle ground between allowing tech illiterates mistakenly disable their antivirus and forcing an antivirus down tech literates' throats.
I do not disagree, but see above.
AlphaBeta wrote:Tech literates should know the way, and the others probably shouldn't be carrying out any business in here.
Now if we would not have dramatized and / or inaccurate writings about Windows 10 or its features.
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Re: Windows 10 Sucks

Post by AlphaBeta »

Maza wrote:
AlphaBeta wrote:From my experience, it's quite hard to contract malware these days, unless you try very hard.
This is not an argument and it does not bolster your argument. I could write—although it would be fabrication—that it is incredibly easy for me to be infected and, therefore, mean the decision is beneficial and necessary for everyone. It would be just as illogical as your comment about your experience.
My point is that the two most common infection vectors are social engineering and exploit kits, and both of these can be easily prevented by using one's common sense and a bit of tech literacy. As long as you keep your software up to date, don't enjoy adult content from suspicious sites and don't open executable files that claim to be an invoice for a thing you never even bought, these infection vectors are eliminated for the most part.

However, considering the destructiveness of malware these days, I don't think that common sense is a particularly strong malware protection, and it really shouldn't be used without a proper antivirus suite.
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Re: Windows 10 Sucks

Post by daemonspudguy »

Maza wrote:I do not even care. The user should do at least a little research before writing of—no, criticizing—things of which he is unaware.
Blatant carbon copy or not, it's clearly trying to fool users into download it thinking it's from the 7zip guys, when it's from some shady-looking company almost lying to consumers. Also, there was a program called 8zip that was a blatant ripoff of 7zip.

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Re: Windows 10 Sucks

Post by Maza »

AlphaBeta wrote:My point is that the two most common infection vectors are social engineering and exploit kits, and both of these can be easily prevented by using one's common sense and a bit of tech literacy. As long as you keep your software up to date, don't enjoy adult content from suspicious sites and don't open executable files that claim to be an invoice for a thing you never even bought, these infection vectors are eliminated for the most part.

However, considering the destructiveness of malware these days, I don't think that common sense is a particularly strong malware protection, and it really shouldn't be used without a proper antivirus suite.
I apologize for apparently misinterpreting your intention when you shared your experience. I cannot disagree, though I am perhaps a little more adamant about my stance against common sense alone (I see that your stance here is also stronger than was assumed).
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Re: Windows 10 Sucks

Post by Maza »

daemonspudguy wrote:Blatant carbon copy or not, it's clearly trying to fool users into download it thinking it's from the 7zip guys,
This is conjecture and it is irrelevant. You should do at least a little research before criticizing something, else you will be incorrect like so. Such criticism not only demonstrates one's ignorance in regard to the thing being criticized, it renders meaningless the points being discussed (as they are not true). Worse, others may believe that which is not true.
daemonspudguy wrote:when it's from some shady-looking company almost lying to consumers.
Finebits OÜ is not suspicious, at least not if one does his or her research. Its applications are even mentioned in favorable lights by authors—that is to say, coverage and reception are positive in a manner that rip-off applications should not receive.
daemonspudguy wrote:Also, there was a program called 8zip that was a blatant ripoff of 7zip.
Do you have any proof? Either way, this too would be irrelevant. If one suspects that an applications is an impersonation or a rip-off—even if an application has a similar or identical name—research must be performed to determine whether one's suspicion is correct before criticism is levelled against it.
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Re: Windows 10 Sucks

Post by yourepicfailure »

>daemonspudguy

Then by your logic, 7zip is a actually dubious and blatant ripoff of Winzip, because the suffix "zip" would cause someone to think they were getting a different version of Winzip.
And then Winrar would be also be a blatant/dubious ripoff of Winzip as well, because the prefix "win" would cause someone to think they were getting a different version of Winzip.
And then all applications with "office" in the name are blatant ripoffs of MS Office, despite their purpose of create a more open and efficient product than Microsoft.
Even though the applications serve a different niche purpose apart from each other, they still share some features for standardization.

It goes to show that you are formulating conjectures based on narrow-mindedness, raw opinion and maybe the slightest hint of facts to "support" it.
As Maza clearly stated, it only takes a slight touch of time to do some valuable research to realize that many of the "sucks" "stoopid" and "idiotic" issues can be resolved quickly and efficiently, resulting in a more wholesome environment for you.
Similarly, I don't think you run 7 or 8.X on the stock install without customizations do you? If you're willing to take the time to make those operating systems feel at home, won't you do the same for something else?

Yes, I don't like 10. But it's everywhere including my workplace. So I've had to learn to deal with it and make it work.
There are many things I don't like about it, and that's an essay for another day. But after at least taking some time I can work around many of those quirks to make it a more productive environment despite my personal vendetta against it.
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Re: Windows 10 Sucks

Post by daemonspudguy »

A stock Windows 10 system on my current hardware is slower than a stock Windows 8.1 Update 1 installation on my far slower, older computer. And as for that WinZip blatant knockoff blah blah, the first ZIP extractor was called PKZIP, and it was for DOS. I have seen a true ripoff of 7zip called 8zip, and it was different to the one on the MS Store.

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Re: Windows 10 Sucks

Post by Maza »

daemonspudguy wrote:A stock Windows 10 system on my current hardware is slower than a stock Windows 8.1 Update 1 installation on my far slower, older computer.
Such a report is by itself meaningless (even if true, a single experience is not reflective of all experience) and especially without any information regarding the configurations. There are too many factors—known and unknown—to just outright attribute the poor performance to Windows 10 itself (e.g., you offered no indication of how the specifications between the two machines differ).
daemonspudguy wrote:And as for that WinZip blatant knockoff blah blah, the first ZIP extractor was called PKZIP, and it was for DOS.
What is your point here?
daemonspudguy wrote:I have seen a true ripoff of 7zip called 8zip, and it was different to the one on the MS Store.
There are two issues here of which I can conceive. First you have offered no proof of the existence of such an application. Second the previous post in which you were incorrect only discussed 8 Zip in the Microsoft Store (which was used as an argument against downloading applications from the Store).
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Re: Windows 10 Sucks

Post by daemonspudguy »

How can I offer proof if the app in question doesn't exist anymore. MS pulled it long ago.

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Re: Windows 10 Sucks

Post by daemonspudguy »

And if you go back a few pages, you will see what I stated my hardware was 3-4 years ago.

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Re: Windows 10 Sucks

Post by yourepicfailure »

What truly matters is that you have not provided a solid argument for your stance that "Windows 10 Sucks." You have stated it performs poorly compared to older operating systems. But you have not stated the configurations you used. AFAIK you may have fast startup enabled on the 8.1 Pro machine (it's on by default) but not on the Enterprise machine. That most definitely results in a significant difference between startup times. You also fail to state just how it performs poorly, aside from bootup times which can be dismissed by varying system configurations.
You have stated it intrudes on your privacy, however it appears you have not spent 30 seconds on the search engine of your choice or performing true traffic analysis to see just what and how is being sent back to Microsoft. In addition, rather than taking time to read the privacy policy and EULA, you continue to ramble about privacy violations with no clear intent to figure out how to take steps to counter it.
You also clearly stated that you base your opinions primarily on blog posts and "experiences", but have shown that you do not perform adequate research to support it (the blog posts read) nor do you open your fields of research to a wide variety of outlets to ensure a balanced knowledge base for a solid argument. You also have shown no intent to actually benchmark performance to evaluate the areas of sub-par performance for a proper "experience" to base your argument on.
daemonspudguy wrote: It was my opinion based on my experiences and blog posts from Microsoft themselves, the one being childish here is you there, Mr. Maza!
Yes, everyone is entitled to an opinion. However when you present that opinion as an argument, it is no longer an opinion!
Lastly, your argument pertaining to the "sketchy Microsoft Store." Yes, dodgy applications do sneak by Microsoft's screening. However, the Apple App Store and Google Play have been proven to not be immune to this deficiency either. So what is your point?

Therefore, you have not presented a valid argument with solid evidence about why you believe "Windows 10 Sucks." Instead, opting to reiterate the same content with no valid support and choose to attack members who call out your deficiencies. And, moving to request the topic be shut down when you realize you're beginning to lose the argument you started. That's clearly not how it works!

Now you want a comparison, try running 10 on 2009 hardware with a 5.4k spinny disk. It performed comparatively with Windows 8.1 on that hardware with similar stock application load times and average login to usable desktop & interactable start menu. They were only obviously beat by the less intensive 7, then by Vista, and finally by Server 2k3. But that proves nothing.
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Re: Windows 10 Sucks

Post by win32 »

I did some unscientific benchmarking with Cinebench R11.5 x64 and got the following results with these OSes in their base configurations*:

Server 2008 SP2: 8.04 CPU pts

XP x64 SP2: 7.98 CPU pts

Windows 10 Pro 1803: 7.50 CPU pts

This was on an HP Z600 Workstation with a Xeon X5670. I should have run it 3x on each OS but I wasn't thinking much that day. Nonetheless you can see that there is a 6.8% hit in CPU operation performance when going from 2008 to Windows 10. I do believe that a good chunk of the performance loss is due to the software mitigations for Spectre/Meltdown, which are quite hard on these older Xeons. Unfortunately, if you prefer performance over protection from highly theoretical exploits, you won't be able to go forward much with Windows 10.

CrystalMark 2004 R7 (x86) also put Windows 10 last, closely followed by Server 2008, then XP x64, then Windows 2000 and finally Server 2003 x86 (which is a very sweet OS). In retrospect I should have done 10 and 2008 x86 but again, I wasn't thinking. That benchmark tested my 5400 rpm SATA HDD, 8 GB of DDR3-1333 + 4 GB of DDR3-1666 and my Quadro FX 3800 in addition to the CPU.

*Server 2008 had desktop experience enabled
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Re: Windows 10 Sucks

Post by MCpillager12 »

yourepicfailure wrote:Now you want a comparison, try running 10 on 2009 hardware with a 5.4k spinny disk.
That is what i did. And trust me, the results were less than pleasent. It was extremely slow, and upgrading to 1903 bricked the boot loader, so i had to move off to a 20-y.o. OS (aka win2k) and its actually quite fast, despite the boot up time (around 45 to 50 seconds).

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