so I haven't visited these forums in like 2 years, what did I miss?

iirc we hit 4TB a few months ago

...


We have had several Windows 8 build leaks, some new Chicagos, etc. tec.

I vaguely remember you, welcome back! And yeah, it's been pretty much same ol' betaarchive. Except that they ruined the hardware support section by making it only for betas.

Welcome back. A lot has happened, take your time browsing our forums .


Oh, and I thought BetaArchive was a beta and abandonware forum, I am sorry. Must have been working on the wrong forum for a couple of years now...

Yes, true, but I'm sure not all of us are interested with betas as much as the rest. Heck, Andy himself said that he isn't too in to betas. Interests pass and fade, when I joined, I was interested, but now, not so much. Does that mean I should leave or something?

Well the point is that this is BetaArchive. But I think everyone can agree that this forum is also concerned with Abandonware.

Whether or not you leave probably depends on your current interests , but I don't think anyone wants you to leave .

Well, then what are those people (that are not interested in betas) doing here then? Would you hang out in a forum dedicated to cooking if you had no interest in it? .


Of course we don't want you to leave, but because your (and others) interest fade doesn't mean we should shift the focus of the forum to something else you and others might at the moment be more interested in. And when your beta/abw interest peaks again I bet you would be happy to come back to a forum not filled with irrelevant and trivial things that has nothing to do with the topics you came here for . My interests shifts at time too, at the moment I am quite into Star Trek (doing a lot of scans of tech manuals etc.), does that mean I should start posting about Star Trek FTL computers in the Computer section and the old pre-LCARS system found on Kirk's Enterprise in the abandonware section? I think not . I would go to a Star Trek forum for that.

If your interests lies elsewhere then focus on that, we will be here when your beta nerve starts twitching again .

I just think it's in all our interests to keep BetaArchive being a beta and abandonware forum, I've already got too many complaints about us steering off course from our main purpose. We are a beta and abandonware community.

Andy may not be as interested in betas as most of us, but he's interested in running and managing this site. So he's special .

People are allowed to talk about My Little Pony here, yet I'm not able to post anything non-beta related in the Hardware Support Forum. You say that Star Trek wouldn't quite fit in well here, yet somehow a topic called "Brony Discussion" still successfully rambles on. This is a beta oriented forum. Therefore, it is a computer oriented forum, which means that if people are able to post about My Little Pony, people should be able to post about something computer related but not beta related in the Hardware support forum, or anywhere else for that matter.

Yeah, agreed. I had the same thoughts.

mrpijey explains this (somewhat): viewtopic.php?p=293981#p293981

I really do think we need to refocus the board if/when BA v3 ever comes around.

And I think not. In my opinion, refocusing simply means ruining the BetaArchive I know and love. Lately I've noticed that the higher-ups in these forums have been getting quite ambitious about making the forums stricter. In case you all forgot, a beta forum is a computer oriented forum. If you really think they need to refocus the board, then why don't you delete brony discussion? I find it odd that someone who posts on "Brony Discussion" supports a stricter BA.

"Jokes and Funny Stuff" is an offtopic forum. If I delete one thread from that forum because "it's not relevant to the board", then all the threads in that forum need to be deleted.

Change is just so controversial.

True, brother, true.

teriaki 511, just download the Windows 8 Release Preview/Server 2012 Release Candidate, and you'll see quite a lot of interesting ideas.

Anyway, that being said, you'll also really enjoy mrpijey's FTP archive (NOT just the Windows 8 builds, but also the other stuff that has been released in all that time).

You do know the meaning of "Offtopic" right? There's a big difference between a forum section dedicated for computer discussion and one dedicated for unrelated stuff? I do agree with you however that the brony stuff isn't fit for this forum and it will be removed when the forum is restructured, so don't worry about it. But until then I will try to avoid having the forum filled with topics that will be removed anyway.


Yes, a beta forum is a computer oriented forum. Oriented around betas. That's why it's a beta forum and not a generic computer forum.

We are not trying to ruin BA, we are trying to streamline it so it contains more contents of the kind people come here to expect. People come here to chat about betas (and to some extent abandonware). So why shouldn't we work at keeping it that way, to remove all the other irrelevant topics then and make sure people remember why they came here in the first place? If you come here for the betas then you should stay here for the betas and not for other stuff, if you need that then I bet there are forums far superior to BA covering those topics.

Forum refocusing is at work, but it's a LOT of work and our intention is to sync that with the new website that is in works. And the website is not finished yet. But we're not going to let BA slip because we're late rolling out updates. Regardless this IS a beta forum and it shall stay one. We do allow some space when it comes to the topics covered on this forum, but we do have limits. We're not supposed to be a generic hardware forum or a generic support forum, so we are not going to allow those questions unless they can directly relate to a beta or abandonware topic. Asking why EMM386 crashes the system or what PSU is best for a 386 is fine, asking why your Core2Duo BSODs or what videocard is best for your Battlefield 3 game is not. It's really not that difficult to understand.


Changes are always controversial since it forces people to think in new ways, to adjust to a new situation. It's always been like that, regardless if it's something simple like adjusting to new shoes or something life changing like adjusting to a life threatening disease or accident. It's natural .

I ask you members to understand why we force these issues. We don't want to just be an another random forum that happens to cover betas on the side. We want to be the best beta forum that covers everything about betas, we want to be precise and professional like a chefs knife in a five star restaurant, not like a greasy pocket knife in a sleazy burger shop.

People always say how good the old OSBA was, how professional it was when it came to betas and that it had tons of resources and skilled members etc. Yet people now complain when we want to force back BA into that professional knowledge base because they want the opportunity to discuss their animated pony interests and personal simplistic hardware issues without any connection to betas or abandonware. I would call this a quite paradox, wouldn't you? If anyone has any ideas on how to reach this professional goal and yet retain all the pointless chatter and not further wash out BA as a generic newbie forum then I am all ears. But no one site has become good by watering it down with unrelated stuff. Tom's Hardware sure didn't get where they are now by covering food topics, or Endgadget by covering the newest car models. No, they got good because they focused on their respective goals and didn't dillute it.

Am I wrong to think this?

Personally, I see nothing wrong with hardware discussion in the form of anything that relates to software, especially operating systems, I mean, as far as I'm concerned, asking why Windows 7/Server 2008 R2 doesn't run properly on a certain system configuration is fine, since it relates to a legitimate Microsoft operating system. It is heavy operating system interest, after all, so I see nothing wrong with that, even if it is still technically an RTM release, and not something that would actually be released here while still being supported by Microsoft.

I also see nothing wrong with the occasional hardware-only topic, especially in the case of older systems, most notably the rarer, less common systems and architectures (for example, systems before the microcomputer age hit at the end of the 1970s and the beginning of the 1980s, including early prototype microcomputer systems such as the ALTAIR 8080), but as has been said, it has to be used wisely. Not using it wisely and in proper moderation just further clutters up the forum with useless topics.

Finally, anything like what was done at WinHistory.de (regarding attempts at running various versions of Windows on different hardware from what they were originally intended to run on) is obviously legitimate, since it relates 100% to how hardware and software interact with each other, it covers both topics, and it is actual strong and legitimate technology discussion in general.

And as for Andy, even he himself has some interest in operating systems and software, so I don't see anything wrong with his position, especially given that he originally founded the site anyway, so I think he's fine.

But as mrpijey said, we're not a general support forum, I mean, in my opinion, it's one thing if you post an occasional support question, especially in a very serious situation (such as, for example, data recovery), but to just clutter it up with massive loads of pointless questions just degrades the community's purpose.

What we need more of, in my opinion:

1. Serious software discussion (legitimate operating system discussion, and not how "lol MS stole from Apple in Windows Vista and Win7" or "Chicago/Win95 was a direct rip off of Macintosh and OS/2 yeah", or anything like that, including the proper evolution of operating systems, past, present and future, as well as legitimate software discussion, and not anything stupid like "ZOMG LOL I BANNED TEH WHOLE IE6 BROWSER I IS TEH L33T LOLlololol11111111oneeleven1111111", or anything like that).

2. Proper, intelligent computer discussion as it relates to operating systems and software (not just endless loads of questions, but stuff that, in most cases, relates to operating systems and software, or at least seeks to be properly worked out).

3. Attempts at further archiving and collecting software whenever, wherever, and however possible (and by the way, thank you for your FTP archive, mrpijey).

4. Proper discussion generally, with respect for others, and not any of the pointless fighting, especially when it's all about software anyway (no fighting over whether X.Y.Z. beta existed or whether Windows Me was a decent operating system or not, after all, debating is one thing, but attacking people over their own personal opinions is quite another).

I hope that I'm not backseat moderating with this post, just thought that I would give my personal views on the matter.

Well, I think trying to get BA to a quality level of discussion is an admirable goal.

I'm not sure focusing so rigidly on betas is the way to go. You mention Tom's Hardware and Engadget, but they are news-first websites. BA is firmly community-first. Hell, if it was news-first, we would probably want to do away with abandonware too. For a community, a narrow focus can be restricting though.

To raise the quality of discussion, there has to be two goals - First, and foremost, we need to educate the existing userbase. BA will not attract skilled new members if the impression amongst such people is that it's a place where pre-teen kids hang out asking how to install x build. Second, of course, is to attract such new skilled members. This has to come secondary though, trying to do it the other way will just fall flat on its face.

I think this means we need to start promoting content. This will include in-depth, technical tutorials, and authoritative information topics, where the aim is to be precise and correct. These should only hold what BA consensus considers to be fact. We can have discussions about more contentious points - and there should be such discussion - elsewhere, but it should be separated from clear fact so not as to confuse newer users, which does happen all to often on BA.

Another point I touched on there is we should look at relaxing some of the stricter rules. I know certain topics are banned because they cause flamewars, but seriously, we're a beta community, and if we're going to take ourselves seriously, we have to be ready to discuss *everything*. There's a difference between heated discussion with lots of justification of opposing viewpoints, and flamewars, and BA needs to sternly protect one whilst coming down harshly on the other. It's a fine line, but again, if considering ourselves a serious, professional forum is the goal, blanket bans just make it seem like the whole userbase can't be trusted with certain topics, and frankly, it makes it look like the staff consider the BA user base to be that aforementioned bunch of pre-teen kids for whom they think certain topics should be censored until they're big enough to handle it, and then they have to do it elsewhere. In the same vein, we need to recognise that knowledge tends to turn things into shades of grey - BA adopts a too black/white approach as things stand with regards to the rules, in my opinion.

I also think that while this is undoubtedly a beta-centric forum, we still need adjacent topics discussed here. It's an opportunity to attract those skilled in beta-adjacent topics and educate them further. This includes hardware, to a degree, software development, more generalised operating system support (though again, keep it close - core system discussion, good, general "why doesn't y software work with x", not welcome), that sort of thing.


On the "brony topic" subject - if it's not staying, why keep it around now?

Fully agree with hounsell. +1

I agree totally with hounsell. And though the idea of improving BA's quality of discussion sounds good, removing all other topics than betas is not the way to go about it. It's easy to say that discussing non-beta hardware support, and non-beta software still would belong in a beta forum, since betas are computer-oriented.

Also, I've seen a rep system in many forums, it would be nice to incorporate one here so I can give rep points to people like hounsell.

I agree with you here, but we won't attract skilled people by allowing them to ask if their new überbuild is good enough or let them discuss generic stuff not related to what we are all here for. If we do this then we'll do the opposite, we attract people out for a quick fix and little effort. We've even lost good people because we've been too generic and "noobish".


And we'll confuse them even more if they come to a beta forum and it then appears that we're less of a beta forum and more of a generic computer-discussion forum. Again, we're BetaArchive. The entire site was formed around the discussion about upcoming and unreleased Windows versions. So why not hold to that and focus on that? The only reason we even include abandonware is because BA had a lot of old DOS and Windows 3.x versions but if the members wanted it we could easily remove that and further streamline the site (and save tons of space as well). But we've always premiered betas before abandonware. As for the contents I am way ahead of you, with the new web design there will be a lot of new sections on the site covering everything from reviews, previews, articles, databases and whatever else the members might want. At the moment all we are is a website with a php-based forum. What we'll become is a full site where the forum is only a part of it. I always wanted BA to evolve from the start, but it's not easily changed overnight.


On the contrary, we don't adopt any black/white approach, we had to do it this way because people didn't respect eachother and even when we did lax the rules people kept at it. I want a completely open forum as well but there are too many immature people out there that has nothing else to do than cause problems. And these issues tend to snowball out of control as we've seen with OSBA and the early times of BetaArchive. It's always a fine line with the rules and there is no perfect solution, what you may think is too harsh others may think it's too lax. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.


Hardware perhaps, software development definately not (any that is unrelated to betas that is). Problem with your approach is that people have a hard time separating the core system discussion from "why doesn't my videocard work?" questions. As I've said, any beta related hardware topics is just fine. As for everything else there are far better suited forums to discuss your generic issues with your generic hardware. However if your hardware fails with running a Chicago beta then no one here will prohibit you from discussing it. That's the entire point I wanted to make. Say whatever you want as long as it's related to betas. "My videocard doesn't work": BAD. "My videocard doesn't work with Chicago build 1234": GOOD. It's a fine line but a very important one.


Good point. It's been "fixed".

It's not easy to run this site, I get a lot of input from various members, some say we're great, some say we're less great. And some say we've declined a lot since the OSBA times because most of the chatter on the forum is about nonsense and issues that could have been resolved with a quick 10 second Google orgy. Andy and I have spent hours discussing where BA is heading and I can't say we're heading into a good direction at the moment. The general opinion I've got is that we have too few "interesting" topics, too few really skilled members (I can name a few skilled ones, but we've lost a few as well) and just a too generic userbase. Part of this is because we've allowed us to expand into fairly unrelated areas. Yes, programming, computers etc is related to betas, but we have to draw a ring around it all and say "this is acceptable and this is not". We were created as a forum focused around betas, we adopted the very name BETAArchive, and we came from a forum focused around betas. So we should stay as a beta forum. So yes, we can discuss programming, computers etc, and we can ask support questions etc, but let it be around betas. I've we're too broad in our definition as a "beta forum" then we lose the very reason to call us a beta forum, then we might as well fully adopt the position of an all-purpose computer forum and rename outselves in the process to something more generic. Then we can with a good reason focus around everything-computer, including betas. So let's call ourselves "PCArchive" or "ComputerArchive" or whatever, and then we'll have everything. And a reason to discuss everything from betas to abandonware, from history to current time, we can let users ask whatever support questions they want (as long as it's computer-related, just like you want) and then we won't have any issues. Since we're no longer a beta forum then we have no need to focus on that. Sounds like a good idea?

I am not trying to be sarcastic or anything here, but I just find it to be in contradiction that we want skilled members but allow topics that doesn't require any, we want to be a better beta forum but we put energy and focus into non-beta matters, and we try to hold on to a beta legacy while we at the same time argue against being what we wanted to be in the first place. I am personally getting quite confused here . The term "beta" we use is quite clear cut and simple to understand, we define a beta software as something unfinished and in development. So why not make this forum into just that, a forum where we only discuss unfinished and in-dev software? Why cover other stuff such as current finished software, hardware issues non-related to these in-dev softwares etc etc then?

Another long reply yes yes, but I get a feeling that people think I want to "kill" BA by forcing it into what it was from the very start, a software beta forum.

ah, as i figured it looks like i missed quite a bit lol. Gonna have to agree on idea of betas first, general computer knowledge second, offtopic shenanigans to the side. Problem lies on where to draw the line


sidenote: it is really freakin wierd seeing myself logged in a teriaki511, havent gone by that name in forever