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 PostPost subject: Apple running Windows NT 3.51 for PPC?        Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:39 pm 
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Wasn't sure if this should be posted in the Mac or Windows part of the forum, but this is something I have been musing about for some time.

Microsoft supported PPC architecture for a very short time with Windows NT 3.51.

Did you need a special version of NT 3.51 for PPC architecture and has anybody ever tried successfully or unsuccessfully to try and install it on an old mac?


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 PostPost subject: Re: Apple running Windows NT 3.51 for PPC?        Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:06 pm 
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no, NT 3.51 for PPC won't run on a Mac, NT 3.51 for PPC uses the ARC Firmware which is not used on PowerPC Macs, instead they use OpenFirmware.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Apple running Windows NT 3.51 for PPC?        Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:19 pm 
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IBM did the PowerPC port which was in NT 3.51 & 4.0 ... While Apple was going nuts looking for a nextgen OS there was some rumors about Windows NT being the basis of the nextgen MacOS ... Although I think it was more of a bargaining thing than anything else. From the leaked source there is some HALS for SGI MIPS based machines (although the firmware to run NT on them was never made public) but I don't recall any Apple PowerPC based stuff, then again CHRP & PREP should have dictated a common enough platform for something to be dropped into place....

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 PostPost subject: Re: Apple running Windows NT 3.51 for PPC?        Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:31 pm 
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Oh well, that's a shame -- I was looking forward to experimenting with that.

Thanks guys.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Apple running Windows NT 3.51 for PPC?        Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:43 pm 
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actually there even was NT 3.5 in a limited version for PPC, but since 3.51 it was included in the regular release

louisw3 wrote:
From the leaked source there is some HALS for SGI MIPS based machines (although the firmware to run NT on them was never made public)

any sources about that? I doubt that this is possible, as SGIs run their MIPS CPU in the wrong endianness to be able to run NT, which is why the firmware is called ARCS instead of ARC.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Apple running Windows NT 3.51 for PPC?        Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:20 pm 
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TheCollector1988 wrote:
no, NT 3.51 for PPC won't run on a Mac, NT 3.51 for PPC uses the ARC Firmware which is not used on PowerPC Macs, instead they use OpenFirmware.



PPC Macs Before the PowerMac G3 BW used the OldWorld ROM… Not firmware (Actually, I think the BW didn't use OpenFirmware either)

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 PostPost subject: Re: Apple running Windows NT 3.51 for PPC?        Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:24 pm 
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orsg wrote:
actually there even was NT 3.5 in a limited version for PPC, but since 3.51 it was included in the regular release

louisw3 wrote:
From the leaked source there is some HALS for SGI MIPS based machines (although the firmware to run NT on them was never made public)

any sources about that? I doubt that this is possible, as SGIs run their MIPS CPU in the wrong endianness to be able to run NT, which is why the firmware is called ARCS instead of ARC.



It's in the NT HAL leaked source, I'm too lazy right not to track it down, but yeah SGI took ARC and flipped it (endian wise) but of course there is no reason you couldn't pull the ROMS and put in LE ROMS.. the problem with NT on SGI is that it quickly made them into PCs... none of the reasons you would buy 'SGI' meant anything... It was more of a proof of concept from what I understood, but at the same time MS got involved in OpenGL which made its appearance in NT 3.5 ...

I guess much like the failed CHRP/PreP PowerPC stuff there was some attempt to standardize MIPS boards, but I guess everyone knows once you make something that can run windows you are competing with the Taiwanese x86 boards, and who wants to go head to head with that? Seems only AMD could with full speed/100% compatible x86 chips, and they are currently loosing that war.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Apple running Windows NT 3.51 for PPC?        Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:27 pm 
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finkmacunix wrote:
TheCollector1988 wrote:
no, NT 3.51 for PPC won't run on a Mac, NT 3.51 for PPC uses the ARC Firmware which is not used on PowerPC Macs, instead they use OpenFirmware.



PPC Macs Before the PowerMac G3 BW used the OldWorld ROM… Not firmware (Actually, I think the BW didn't use OpenFirmware either)


I thought it was the Blue & White G3's with the new firmware for OS X 10.0 while the older G3's ran OS X 1.0 through some weird OS 8 booting... OS X 1.0 was.. a little strange, there is no doubt a lot of work took it from it's OpenSTEP feel to OS X 10.0 ... Although Carbon really saved their bacon (it was like a Win32s for OS X) it's too bad they didn't make a 64bit version of it, but they really seemed intent on pushing out any of the other developer/compiler/language people.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Apple running Windows NT 3.51 for PPC?        Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:35 pm 
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louisw3 wrote:
finkmacunix wrote:
TheCollector1988 wrote:
no, NT 3.51 for PPC won't run on a Mac, NT 3.51 for PPC uses the ARC Firmware which is not used on PowerPC Macs, instead they use OpenFirmware.



PPC Macs Before the PowerMac G3 BW used the OldWorld ROM… Not firmware (Actually, I think the BW didn't use OpenFirmware either)


I thought it was the Blue & White G3's with the new firmware for OS X 10.0 while the older G3's ran OS X 1.0 through some weird OS 8 booting... OS X 1.0 was.. a little strange, there is no doubt a lot of work took it from it's OpenSTEP feel to OS X 10.0 ... Although Carbon really saved their bacon (it was like a Win32s for OS X) it's too bad they didn't make a 64bit version of it, but they really seemed intent on pushing out any of the other developer/compiler/language people.



I have Mac OSX DP(4? The first one with Aqua…) installed on mine… I'm pretty sure that it doesn't have OpenFirmware, because holding Option while starting up doesn't bring up the Disk Selector… It can't boot from USB either…

Edit: Never mind, the BW G3 has the Newworld ROM… But I'm not sure if it uses OpenFirmware or not…

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 PostPost subject: Re: Apple running Windows NT 3.51 for PPC?        Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 9:05 pm 
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My 2 cents:
You can boot the G3 from external drives via OpenFirmWare.
PCI Mac Old World ROMS have a incomplete OFW.
Mac OS X DP3 also contains Aqua.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Apple running Windows NT 3.51 for PPC?        Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 9:52 pm 
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all PCI-based Macs have OpenFirmware to use PCI during bootup, but only in NewWorld Macs is it easily accessible
I once heard, that even Nubus-based PowerMacs have OpenFirmware hidden deep inside the PROM, but I found no sources to back this up


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 PostPost subject: Re: Apple running Windows NT 3.51 for PPC?        Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:09 pm 
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louisw3 wrote:
While Apple was going nuts looking for a nextgen OS there was some rumors about Windows NT being the basis of the nextgen MacOS ... Although I think it was more of a bargaining thing than anything else.


Apple indeed considered building OS X (by then still in planning stages) on the foundation Windows NT, but ultimately they opted for UNIX.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Apple running Windows NT 3.51 for PPC?        Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:29 pm 
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primarily they opted for nextstep with its nice OO-Framework...I doubt that the hidden Unix foundation was much of a criteria while choosing.
based on the reports, that they wanted to buy Be with BeOS, which failed only due to pricing expectations from Be, a Unix foundation cannot be the key for their decision, because BeOS isn't based on Unix


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 PostPost subject: Re: Apple running Windows NT 3.51 for PPC?        Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:55 am 
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DeFacto wrote:
louisw3 wrote:
While Apple was going nuts looking for a nextgen OS there was some rumors about Windows NT being the basis of the nextgen MacOS ... Although I think it was more of a bargaining thing than anything else.


Apple indeed considered building OS X (by then still in planning stages) on the foundation Windows NT, but ultimately they opted for UNIX.


Yeah the 'yellow' box used to run on NT, but Win32 to be more specific ... It'd make sense to go back to 'Mach/Unix' as that is what it was before....

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 PostPost subject: Re: Apple running Windows NT 3.51 for PPC?        Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:00 pm 
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There was some article on this subject which listed all the platforms Apple considered at the time. Lost the link unfortunately... :(


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 PostPost subject: Re: Apple running Windows NT 3.51 for PPC?        Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:12 pm 
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I think the weirdest 'replacement' that shipped was AIX... it was on the workgroup server...

Its weird how they paid all that $$$ for A/UX but never really did anything with it.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Apple running Windows NT 3.51 for PPC?        Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:15 am 
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orsg wrote:
actually there even was NT 3.5 in a limited version for PPC, but since 3.51 it was included in the regular release

louisw3 wrote:
From the leaked source there is some HALS for SGI MIPS based machines (although the firmware to run NT on them was never made public)

any sources about that? I doubt that this is possible, as SGIs run their MIPS CPU in the wrong endianness to be able to run NT, which is why the firmware is called ARCS instead of ARC.

Here's the source: http://yarchive.net/comp/sgi_nt.html . And there is other evidence too. Or this.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Apple running Windows NT 3.51 for PPC?        Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 11:05 am 
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louisw3 wrote:
Its weird how they paid all that $$$ for A/UX but never really did anything with it.


A/UX originally only existed so that Apple could sell Macs to the US government - at the time of A/UX 1.0, purchased computers were required to be able to run UNIX, so to sell Macs they needed a UNIX to run (even if in practice they would actually run System6). Later on someone inside Apple realised that A/UX absolutely wiped the floor with MacOS for disk I/O, so they ported the AppleShare file server to A/UX as AppleShare Pro and shipped it with the original Apple Workgroup Server bundles. An AWS95 running A/UX and AppleShare Pro was the most kickass fileserver you could get for Apple clients in the mid 90s.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Apple running Windows NT 3.51 for PPC?        Posted: Mon May 26, 2014 7:26 am 
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No... a PPC based Macintosh can only boot off HFS/HFS+ disk.
If you boot it off (hack or use third-party bootloader), maybe the HAL's not suit for Macs and the system will not work...
Even if you made it, you'll have to face some driver problems... And the PPC Windows NT does not run x86 programs. So it seems to make no sence.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Apple running Windows NT 3.51 for PPC?        Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 10:21 pm 
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There were some Mac "clones" (under the short-lived licencing programme in the 90s) that were capable of running both Windows NT and MacOS (and probably AIX), made by companies like UMAX. I'm not sure whether they could "dual boot" the different OSs or not though... (Different boot firmwares and incompatible HDD partitioning schemes make this difficult.)

BTW, Non-x86 versions of NT do support (16-bit) x86 applications via an emulator. There was also a DEC-developed product called "FX!32" that ran 32-bit x86 applications on Alpha systems.


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 PostPost subject: Re: Apple running Windows NT 3.51 for PPC?        Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:49 am 
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Hi,

I'd like to contribute a few things:

Firstly, all PCI Power Macs use OpenFirmware, as has been discussed, and the main difference between OldWorld and NewWorld is that OldWorld Mac's OF is configured by default for serial communications (not the onscreen command line available on NewWorld Macs via CMD+OPT+O+F), and I believe they also used an older version (1.x vs. 2.x or 2.x vs. 3.x, I can't remember).

Secondly, the Mac clones licensed the Apple ROMs and chipset designs, therefore they're largely identical to true Power Macs from a software perspective (for the most part; multi-processor support, for instance, was first seen in a Mac clone; Apple would incorporate that feature into true Macs a bit later).

Thirdly, Mac OS X DP3 was the first DP to include Aqua (and it was actually trivial to disable, rendering it mostly identical to DP2 otherwise).

Fourthly, The B&W Power Mac G3 shipped with Mac OS 8.5 (although I think there was a configuration called the Power Macintosh G3 Server that came with Mac OS X Server 1.x instead).

Lastly, Windows NT 4.0 had a PPC version as well. I think even some early NT 5 (aka Windows 2000) betas has a PPC build, but I'm not sure about this one; I thought I read it somewhere.

I hope this will clear up a few things here...

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 PostPost subject: Re: Apple running Windows NT 3.51 for PPC?        Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 8:44 am 
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GL1zdA wrote:
orsg wrote:
actually there even was NT 3.5 in a limited version for PPC, but since 3.51 it was included in the regular release

louisw3 wrote:
From the leaked source there is some HALS for SGI MIPS based machines (although the firmware to run NT on them was never made public)

any sources about that? I doubt that this is possible, as SGIs run their MIPS CPU in the wrong endianness to be able to run NT, which is why the firmware is called ARCS instead of ARC.

Here's the source: http://yarchive.net/comp/sgi_nt.html . And there is other evidence too. Or this.


I want to add some information that i found time ago:

"At the 1996 PC Expo held in New York City on June 18 - 20, FirmWorks and its technology partners IBM and VLSI Technology demonstrated the ability of a CHRP reference platform to boot Mac OS and Windows NT on a single machine with a single ATI 264VT graphics adapter/display, keyboard and mouse.

While additional work remained to be done to create product quality machines, this demonstration showed the continuing commitment of the AIM alliance and its strategic partners like FirmWorks to bring the CHRP technology to the marketplace as rapidly as possible. Current expectations are that complete CHRP systems/reference designs will be available in November, 1996 when all of the final hardware and operating systems to support dual booting will be available."

http://www.firmworks.com/www/chrp.htm


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 PostPost subject: Re: Apple running Windows NT 3.51 for PPC?        Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 5:47 pm 
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Hyoenmadan86 wrote:
GL1zdA wrote:
orsg wrote:
actually there even was NT 3.5 in a limited version for PPC, but since 3.51 it was included in the regular release

louisw3 wrote:
From the leaked source there is some HALS for SGI MIPS based machines (although the firmware to run NT on them was never made public)

any sources about that? I doubt that this is possible, as SGIs run their MIPS CPU in the wrong endianness to be able to run NT, which is why the firmware is called ARCS instead of ARC.

Here's the source: http://yarchive.net/comp/sgi_nt.html . And there is other evidence too. Or this.


I want to add some information that i found time ago:

"At the 1996 PC Expo held in New York City on June 18 - 20, FirmWorks and its technology partners IBM and VLSI Technology demonstrated the ability of a CHRP reference platform to boot Mac OS and Windows NT on a single machine with a single ATI 264VT graphics adapter/display, keyboard and mouse.

While additional work remained to be done to create product quality machines, this demonstration showed the continuing commitment of the AIM alliance and its strategic partners like FirmWorks to bring the CHRP technology to the marketplace as rapidly as possible. Current expectations are that complete CHRP systems/reference designs will be available in November, 1996 when all of the final hardware and operating systems to support dual booting will be available."

http://www.firmworks.com/www/chrp.htm

It's probably the same as with the SGI Indigos running NT and IRIX on MIPS - they worked on it, they never marketed it, the required firmware is buried in a corporate archive.

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 PostPost subject: Re: Apple running Windows NT 3.51 for PPC?        Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 1:03 am 
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I don't know, but there are bootloaders out there that allow other OSes to be installed on older Macs like that. They work by first booting Mac OS (which is the only OS the firmware will boot), then booting the other OS after Mac OS. Maybe it could be installed like that?

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 PostPost subject: Re: Apple running Windows NT 3.51 for PPC?        Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:13 am 
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You need an IBM PowerPC workstation for NT for PowerPC. Power Macintoshes won't work.


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